The Doolittle Raid B-25 Rumor

[mike furline]

Interesting discussion.

Given the closed stereotype of their society, I doubt many (or any) knew of this plane's significance, ...

An interesting mental exercise in these situations is to reverse the details and see what that says. If an historic Russian aircraft from a remarkable Russian bombing raid ended up in the US during the war, would it have been given significant treatment and then preserved with reverence? I'd suggest, after some initial newsreel mileage, probably not. For instance, how many here are aware of the 1937 flight of the Tupolev ANT-25 to California from Moscow via the North Pole?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-25

It's a classic mistake to think that 'our' nation's achievements are of international import, whereas most of the world and it's people are pretty parochial. In the case of Soviet, Stalinist Russia, reality (and worse, external realities) had little chance against the requirements of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy.

A lost B-25 would be just another foreign aeroplane, and treated with the same 'not invented here' default position as foreign aircraft usually get, notwithstanding the PR for Lend Lease material to the Soviets - they still (just like everyone else) really preferred their own kit.

Regards,

James,
I think we are trying to say the same thing, however you took a leap of logic far beyond anything I was inferring.
Ken

Most of the time, I don't get him either.

[Warbirdnerd]

Here's one my Russian friends prepared earlier Defnitely B-25 remains in the Russian Far East, but as with this one, not DR related.

That is quite a shot Dave. Can you share any more details behind the recovery? Thanks.

[gary1954]

Here's one my Russian friends prepared earlier Defnitely B-25 remains in the Russian Far East, but as with this one, not DR related.

Cool, looks like the cockpit was cut away from the center section (drat) I wonder if the data plate is still attached and what the SN is....what is the date time frame of the photo please?

[JDK]

Most of the time, I don't get him either.

If you don't understand, just ask.

Simply, the Russians are unlikely to have seen any need preserved an aircraft of American fame and import, as it wasn't their hero - additionally, as Ken touched on, the Russian state's ever-changing version of history would be particularly likely to delete any US achievements and their remnants.

Regards,

[Ken]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I guess I will. I simply meant that there were, let's assume, 50 Russians who witnessed the arrival of York's plane. Of that group, maybe only 1/3 knew what they were looking at or cared to remember it beyond a week; 17 guys. Of that group, those who re-told the story or retained the details of what made that plane unique were probably another third; 6 guys. Now how many of them survived the war? 1 or 2? And all this occurred in a time without cell phone cameras, Twitter, in some cases phone lines or electricity, etc. Oh yeah, also in a fairly closed, scripted society. This has little to do with the country of origin or poh-poohing their accomplishments; this is pure human nature at play. It was a B-25 and, within a couple years, they had plenty of B-25s, so one would really have to know what they were looking at AND care for it to be noticed, forget significant.

The fact that the photos of York's plane survived and are available today is an amazing miracle. Glad they did, but a miracle.

Ken

[JDK]

Sure, Ken. If York and the B-25 had been Russians, those guys who saw it would've had reason to pass on the info, and people with authority reason and kudos to undertake some preservation. But it was just another American bomber to them, no mileage.

The means of communication aren't as important as the reasons for passing information on.

Regards,

[Wildchild]

Well if the Raiders used B model's, and the Russians didn't really like the B model, you would think they knew what they had if they kept it until 1949

[Garth]

Well if the Raiders used B model's, and the Russians didn't really like the B model, you would think they knew what they had if they kept it until 1949

Well, they may not have liked the B model as a combat aircraft, but the Doolittle bird did have mods (such as the previously-mentioned extra fuel capacity) that could have made it desirable as a squadron hack. IIRC the B-model -25 was also a bit faster and more maneuverable than the heaver C/D/G/H/Js (iirc Lawson says in 30 Seconds that when the Russians were evaluating them for Lend Lease they were flying them like pursuit ships and actually popping rivets from the aggressive maneuvering). So the logical conclusion is that the York B-25 became a favorite play-toy of a local-area commander.

One other thing that I recall from some earlier discussions is how, had they survived, the Doolittle Mitchells would have required engine swap-outs due to component burnout from the special range-enhancing mods.

[DaveM2]

Here's one my Russian friends prepared earlier Defnitely B-25 remains in the Russian Far East, but as with this one, not DR related.

That is quite a shot Dave. Can you share any more details behind the recovery? Thanks.

WN/Gary

More info here:

http://www.wingsmuseum.co.uk/north_amer ... ration.htm

Dave

[Ken]

The means of communication aren't as important as the reasons for passing information on.

Right! And in this case, they may have been lacking in both arenas.

[JDK]

Agreed! And I can hear a faint noise that sounds like a dying horse asking us to quit...

So I'll stop there, but it's been an interesting thread, as ever. Ken, if you're ever likely to be in my neck of the woods, or the paths look likely to cross, drop me a PM for a cold one meet.

Regards,

[mike furline]

Most of the time, I don't get him either.

If you don't understand, just ask.

"In the case of Soviet, Stalinist Russia, reality (and worse, external realities) had little chance against the requirements of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy."

What is the difference between "reality and external realities"? Is there an "internal reality"? Which reality is WIX a part of?

What exactly were the "requirements" of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy?

[gary1954]

Here's one my Russian friends prepared earlier Defnitely B-25 remains in the Russian Far East, but as with this one, not DR related.

That is quite a shot Dave. Can you share any more details behind the recovery? Thanks.

WN/Gary

More info here:

http://www.wingsmuseum.co.uk/north_amer ... ration.htm

Dave

Dave, thanks for the lead, it is appreciated.


I was wondering if anyone has seen the portion of the right engine cowling from 40-2303 "The Whirling Dervish" Crew 9 from Lt. Watson's plane, it was given to Mrs. FDR in July 1944 that was subsequently mounted by North American Aviation and presented to the Tokyo Raiders for their archives....anyone?...anyone?....Buler?....Buler?

[JDK]

"In the case of Soviet, Stalinist Russia, reality (and worse, external realities) had little chance against the requirements of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy."

What is the difference between "reality and external realities"? Is there an "internal reality"? Which reality is WIX a part of?

WIX reality? Sometimes I wonder.

In the above quote, what really happened and what was real had little chance against the requirements of the Stalinist system which told people what was real. Arguing about it was not possible. So what was 'real' in Stalinist Russia was what you were told, not what you saw. In this case, 'external reality' refers to things outside Russia, such as the role and actions of the USA in W.W.II. What people in Stalin's Russia were told was driven by the current needs and paranoia of the Communist Party, and were not based on reality at all.

What exactly were the "requirements" of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy?

1984 by George Orwell is a good answer to both questions, being based, in part, on the changing paranoid world of 1940s Russian Communism under Stalin. I was referring to how people and events were simply written out of history and had never existed or happened; how Stalin was always 'right', which gets interesting when his mind changed; and how people were (rarely) brought back in to favour and re-entered the historical narrative. (See the story of Vladimir Petlyakov, designer of the Pe-2 medium bomber for an example of disgrace and then rehabilitation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Petlyakov )

As a citizen, you were required to be current and 'convinced' by the ever changing version of history (and current affairs, and governance) that the Communist Party were continually re-writing. Offering an out of date version, or dissent could be fatal. That's the requirements of their ever changing orthodoxy.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

[Wildchild]

Here's something for ya...

(sorry for the size)