The Doolittle Raid B-25 Rumor

[Ken]

Kudos to Ski York for recognizing the fuel consumption problem and having the confidence to deviate from a thoroughly briefed plan in order to save his ship & crew. In reading a few of Doolittle's later books, I don't recall him ever questioning or critiquing York's decision.

Most of the Raider accounts detail that no one thought that they would make it China due to the early takeoff from Hornet, but an unexpected tailwind allowed them to at least reach the Chinese coast. York, with less fuel remaining would likely have been lost at sea or picked up by Japanese vessels regardless - neither choice a good one. The other point to remember is that all of this was done using DR navigation and maybe some celestial. Most pilots today wouldn't even consider taking on such a challenge; GPS and the other modern geezenstacks have made us soft, albeit safer.

I was thrilled when various versions of those post-landing photos appeared as above in this thread. The greeting must not have been too severe, as York's crew took the time to put on their turret cover. Others have commented that the light colored exhaust staining on the nacelles confirm the overly rich fuel mixture, lest anyone question York's motive. Ted Lawson (in "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo") documents the attitudes of the local mechanics working on the planes as they traveled to the various mod centers and staging bases. It seems completely plausible that someone adjusted York's carbs despite instructions not to.

As for the disposition of the airplane, Russia operated a large number of B-25s under Lend Lease. I don't have the numbers in front of me the know how many were/were not on hand by April 1942, but I suspect that, as it was wartime, the Russians were happy to have one more operable B-25 and, for the Russian crews who were intimately familiar with the Mitchell, recognized that this bird was unique due to its extra fuel capacity and subtle incompatibilities with exhaust and whatnot, as it was a B-model. I wouldn't be surprised if it was later converted to accept the C/D QEC and served alongside her sisters with pride. The odds of the original engines being found in a scrap yard are slim, as it is more likely that they were canned of compatible parts to support the rest of the fleet, but who knows.

Given the closed stereotype of their society, I doubt many (or any) knew of this plane's significance, especially as the months went on and personnel were transferred, killed, etc. It is more likely that she served on in slightly unique roles (assuming they retained her fuel config) and, if the stories are true, that helps explain why she survived into the 1950's when many of her sisters did not.

Tired old story, but few of us will tire of it. Nobody expected these great photos to surface yet here they are. Again, big kudos to York & crew for taking some risks while using their heads to make the best of a bad situation. Maybe more details will surface some day, but absent that, it is still an event that captures my attention, admiration, and imagination.

Ken

[Dan Jones]

I remember the first time I saw a photograph of the B-25 at Monino and noted the rear turret, the early model cowlings and exhaust... I thought "Just maybe..." But I guess that one's a D model.

[Ken]

Not to go OT, but I'd forgotten how many treasures are at Monino. A-20, B-25, P-63, IL-2, IL-10.

I'm sure it's been covered before but the B-25 nose looks like a hasty creation. Would love to see the interior and the completeness of the ventral turret. It's a shame those airframes don't seem to get better attention, yet, as a result, they are probably little changed from when they were retired.

[Wildchild]

I havn't heard about this, but how many B-25's crash-landed in water that could be intact?

York's aircraft, B-25B 40-2242, did not crash-land in water. It was flown to Russia, and landed approximately 40 miles north Vladivostok. The aircraft was retained by the Russians, and allegedly was scrapped in 1950s.

Yes I realize this. There is always the off-chance that York's plane managed to escape to a abandoned hangar, or even crashed in the middle of no-where, but the chances of that happening are slim to none. Unless someone has a contact in Russia who can get to the historical records for the USSR's B-25's, we may never know for sure.

Because there is a 95% chance that York's plane has been scrapped, I brought up the 25 that ditched at sea. If she's still intact, could we recover that plane? (I can't remember where I read this, but another forum said it was Ruptured Duck that ditched...)

[Ken]

I brought up the 25 that ditched at sea. If she's still intact, could we recover that plane? (I can't remember where I read this, but another forum said it was Ruptured Duck that ditched...)

I'll let someone else chime in louder on this one, but 3 of the 16 are listed as ditching. Ruptured Duck was attempting a beach landing with gear down when it went in the water. Gunner David Thatcher reports the water as not being very deep when he came to and exited the inverted aft fuselage. The "experts" know, but there have been expeditions to find pieces of the Doolittle wrecks. A museum in TX has one of the armored seat backs from the #1 airplane. Others have shown very small pieces recovered from #7 Ruptured Duck. The consensus is that whatever was accessible was either salvaged by Chinese civilians or, supposedly returned to Japan for propaganda display. The others were likely torn up on the sea floor by violent storms common to the area. If you have some time to kill, do a Google advanced search of WIX and there are some interesting threads that cover this topic in much greater detail, including the expeditions in the last 20 years looking for such artifacts.

Ken

[catch 22]

As for the disposition of the airplane, Russia operated a large number of B-25s under Lend Lease. I don't have the numbers in front of me the know how many were/were not on hand by April 1942, but I suspect that, as it was wartime, the Russians were happy to have one more operable B-25 and, for the Russian crews who were intimately familiar with the Mitchell, recognized that this bird was unique due to its extra fuel capacity and subtle incompatibilities with exhaust and whatnot, as it was a B-model. Ken

Ken, the first 2 (of 5) B-25, model B planes for the USSR were delivered in Murmansk on December 20, 1941 in crates. The 5 B-25B were flown to Moscow first in March 1943. None of them was used as a warplane. All became training a/c. One of the B-25B even flew back to Fairbanks, Alaska in September 1942 with the Soviet colonel on board, who was CO of the unit bringing Lend-Lease planes over the Bering street.
The Northern route didn't become a popular way for Lend-Lease deliveries though. Only through the using of the Southern Route (with end point in Basra, Iran) it became possible to bring bigger numbers of B-25's to Russia. The first 72 B-25C were delivered mostly by Pan Am pilots over Africa, Syria and Iran during March 1942. Over the same route 118 a/c were flown to the USSR.

Only after the opening of the ALSIB-route (ALaska-SIBeria) in the end of 1942, a real mass-delivery of war planes for the USSR became a reality. A total of 861 B-25's from different versions (only B-25H were not given to the Soviets) were delivered until the end of WWII.
So at the time of the Tokyo Raid the Russians were in no way "intimately familiar with the Mitchell". Even the coast guard couldn't recognize the B-25 of York, taking it for a soviet plane (that's why it was escorted by the 2 I-15 later).
As for the cover of the ventral turret: the photo was taken on the next day. The plane was already in the hands of the Soviets and they apparently studied it very thoroughly. I'm not sure the crew had any time to do anything at all after the landing. By the way, based on the Soviet air-base report from that day, the crew saluted the Russians after the landing, shooting with the turret guns.
3 days later the single B-25 was moved to a different airbase and used mostly as a training a/c, not as a warplane. As of July 1, 1943 г. the a/c was in the inventory of the 52-nd Bomber Regiment in Nikolaevka. The last known flight of the plane was probably in the fall of 1949.
Cheers!

Last edited by catch 22 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Ken]

Thanks Yves for the added detail on Lend Lease deliveries - great stuff. To be clear, I didn't necessarily mean that the Russians saw this airplane as a tad unique just on April 19, 1942, but throughout its tenure I assume those in the know regarded it as a "one-off" as compared to the other variants they operated. Whether they kept it as unchanged as possible or tried to make it more stock, I'd be curious to know. At least one could assume that they didn't have to monkey much with the carburetor settings.

One other small clarification, Basrah is in Iraq, very close to the Iranian border; never been more hot and uncomfortable at midnight than I was during visits there.

Ken

[catch 22]

Thanks Yves for the added detail on Lend Lease deliveries - great stuff. To be clear, I didn't necessarily mean that the Russians saw this airplane as a tad unique just on April 19, 1942, but throughout its tenure I assume those in the know regarded it as a "one-off" as compared to the other variants they operated. Whether they kept it as unchanged as possible or tried to make it more stock, I'd be curious to know. At least one could assume that they didn't have to monkey much with the carburetor settings.
One other small clarification, Basrah is in Iraq, very close to the Iranian border; never been more hot and uncomfortable at midnight than I was during visits there.
Ken

Ken, now I know what you mean. Yes, with the following deliveries it became clear, that the -B model was not really desired as a Lend-Lease a/c by the Russians. I don't have any details about any possible modifications of this particular a/c though.
Sorry about Basra - around that time (April 1941) there was this pro-German coup d’état followed by military action etc. I'm not sure was Basra used for deliveries later on or not. Anyways, the Southern Route was over Iran, but through Basra (Basrah) was what I wanted to mention above.

I'm sure it's been covered before but the B-25 nose looks like a hasty creation. Would love to see the interior and the completeness of the ventral turret. It's a shame those airframes don't seem to get better attention, yet, as a result, they are probably little changed from when they were retired.

There is a detailed walkaround with many pics of the plane in Monino. It's simply a disaster. Not only the nose, but almost every and any part was "recreated". Many parts are made of sheet metal, the glazed parts are "surreal" - just check the top turret and the observers cone in the tail. This was one of the planes which crashed in the taiga and was later recovered and restored with different parts at the museum.
Cheers!

[Noha307]

I brought up the 25 that ditched at sea. If she's still intact, could we recover that plane? (I can't remember where I read this, but another forum said it was Ruptured Duck that ditched...)

I'll let someone else chime in louder on this one, but 3 of the 16 are listed as ditching. Ruptured Duck was attempting a beach landing with gear down when it went in the water. Gunner David Thatcher reports the water as not being very deep when he came to and exited the inverted aft fuselage. The "experts" know, but there have been expeditions to find pieces of the Doolittle wrecks. A museum in TX has one of the armored seat backs from the #1 airplane. Others have shown very small pieces recovered from #7 Ruptured Duck. The consensus is that whatever was accessible was either salvaged by Chinese civilians or, supposedly returned to Japan for propaganda display. The others were likely torn up on the sea floor by violent storms common to the area. If you have some time to kill, do a Google advanced search of WIX and there are some interesting threads that cover this topic in much greater detail, including the expeditions in the last 20 years looking for such artifacts.

Ken

Interesting stuff, I never knew that pieces had been recovered. You said the Ruptured Duck attempted a beach landing, how far offshore were the other 2 B-25's when they ditched? Unless they were right up on the beach, I wouldn't expect them to be torn up by storms.

A bit of quick digging got me this:

6th Aircraft - Plane # 40-2298 - "The Green Hornet"...The two enlisted members of the crew drowned when the pilot ditched his bomber in the ocean just off the coast of China after fuel ran out. Lt. Hallmark was slightly injured but swam to shore to meet up with the other two survivors.

and this:

[The Green Hornet] ditched at sea Wenchu, China

and this:

15th Aircraft - Plane # 40-2267 - "TNT"...In the dark rainy night, pilot Lt. Donald Smith finally saw the mountains along the Chinese coastline. He tried in vain to raise the bomber to escape the mountain peaks--the fuel is running out. Smith was then forced to land on the sea, an area less than 500 meters away from the Tantou Mountain Island of east China's Zhejiang Province. The bomber landed steadily on the sea water and the aircrew all was safe without any injury. When the crew swam safely to the shore on the Tantou Mountain Island, they found that gunner(and surgeon) Lt.. Tom "Doc" White was left nowhere.

and this:

[TNT] ditched at sea Shangchow, China

and this:

Incredibly, TNT and Ruptured Duck landed near each other within moments of one another near Tantou Shan, China.

and this:

The plane [TNT] plunged down into 100 t of water just after he had completed his effort and escaped.

(I have no idea what "t" means.)

Okay, maybe it wasn't quick, and I sort of answered my own question, does anyone have anything better or more specific?

EDIT: Oops, forgot a URL. Also made the ambiguous quotes clear as to which aircraft they were referring to.

[Russ Matthews]

(I have no idea what "t" means.)

I suspect it's a typo. Since the comment is made with regard to the plane's sinking, it is likely a refernce to the depth of water and should probably read "100 ft" (or "one hundred feet.")

[Noha307]

(I have no idea what "t" means.)

I suspect it's a typo. Since the comment is made with regard to the plane's sinking, it is likely a refernce to the depth of water and should probably read "100 ft" (or "one hundred feet.")

Yea, I figured it was supposed to be some sort of depth metric, I just didn't know what. I can't believe I didn't think of feet, but then again, I didn't think very hard. Thanks. (Now, to over think it, "f" is right next to "t" on the keyboard, so your suggestion makes sense. Incidentally, I find taking a look at a keyboard solves most mystery typo issues.)

BTW, nice use of "refernce" in your typo correcting post. (No hard feelings)

[JDK]

Interesting discussion.

Given the closed stereotype of their society, I doubt many (or any) knew of this plane's significance, ...

An interesting mental exercise in these situations is to reverse the details and see what that says. If an historic Russian aircraft from a remarkable Russian bombing raid ended up in the US during the war, would it have been given significant treatment and then preserved with reverence? I'd suggest, after some initial newsreel mileage, probably not. For instance, how many here are aware of the 1937 flight of the Tupolev ANT-25 to California from Moscow via the North Pole?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-25

It's a classic mistake to think that 'our' nation's achievements are of international import, whereas most of the world and it's people are pretty parochial. In the case of Soviet, Stalinist Russia, reality (and worse, external realities) had little chance against the requirements of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy.

A lost B-25 would be just another foreign aeroplane, and treated with the same 'not invented here' default position as foreign aircraft usually get, notwithstanding the PR for Lend Lease material to the Soviets - they still (just like everyone else) really preferred their own kit.

Regards,

[DaveM2]

Here's one my Russian friends prepared earlier Defnitely B-25 remains in the Russian Far East, but as with this one, not DR related.

[Russ Matthews]

BTW, nice use of "refernce" in your typo correcting post.

Haha .. what would a typo post be without a genuine tpyo??

[Ken]

Interesting discussion.

Given the closed stereotype of their society, I doubt many (or any) knew of this plane's significance, ...

An interesting mental exercise in these situations is to reverse the details and see what that says. If an historic Russian aircraft from a remarkable Russian bombing raid ended up in the US during the war, would it have been given significant treatment and then preserved with reverence? I'd suggest, after some initial newsreel mileage, probably not. For instance, how many here are aware of the 1937 flight of the Tupolev ANT-25 to California from Moscow via the North Pole?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-25

It's a classic mistake to think that 'our' nation's achievements are of international import, whereas most of the world and it's people are pretty parochial. In the case of Soviet, Stalinist Russia, reality (and worse, external realities) had little chance against the requirements of the Communist party's ever-changing orthodoxy.

A lost B-25 would be just another foreign aeroplane, and treated with the same 'not invented here' default position as foreign aircraft usually get, notwithstanding the PR for Lend Lease material to the Soviets - they still (just like everyone else) really preferred their own kit.

Regards,

James,
I think we are trying to say the same thing, however you took a leap of logic far beyond anything I was inferring.
Ken