Question: Whole Nine Yards

[Noha307]

I can never get over the amount of "facts" that are out there. (I had a high school history teacher once tell me the one about Thomas Crapper.) They're usually relatively easy to pick out too. (Don't ask me how though, I have no idea. Just a sixth-sense about it, I guess. Best I can say is that they just sound unrealistic.) I've been wondering about this one recently, so this thread is ironically timely. I read it somewhere a while ago and forgot about it until recently when some people who will remain nameless, started quoting it as a fact. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I am very specific about what I state as fact. If there's something I don't know, then I'll tell you that I don't know it. I'm not in the business of spreading possibly false statements.

You must have went the full 9 yards to dig that one out.

Man, that is the second death-sentence-deserving-terrible-pun I read on WIX tonight. What is the world coming too?

(BTW, if you want prevent yourself from making some possibly embarrassing statements read this: Wikipedia - List of common misconceptions)

[k5083]

I had heard and generally believed the tailor theory to be the most plausible.

But then again -- I'm a suit! (Some would say an empty one ...)

August

[Red Baaron]

I laid out a three foot section of .50cal shells this morning. There is about 38 shells in a yard. I say about because it could vary by about three shells, depending on how you compress the links. That makes 342 .50cal shells in "nine yards". I'll leave it to others to figure out if that corresponds to a known load out for a 50 cal gun in an airplane or something else.

[Taigh Ramey]

I know it is not possible to prove the phrase but we can add or remove plausibility to the theory about this having to do with belts of ammunition. I will add what I can and you all can do with the information as you like.

100 rounds of 50 cal ammunition is 8 feet long. Yes the belt will stretch and grow a little due to the clearance in the links but it is not very much at all.





This works out to 337 rounds in 27 feet (pretty much agrees with what Red Baaron came up with). The ANM-2 50 cal aircraft gun fires between 750 and 850 rounds per minute or 12 to 14 rounds per second. The whole 9 yards means holding the trigger down for 24 to 27 seconds which sure is a long time and I imagine would cook the barrel.

I would find it hard to envision any gun run either strafing or air to air where you might have the opportunity to fire for such an extended period. Ground gun firing seems more likely. Some of those haunting scenes from the German side of Normandy Beach in Saving Private Ryan come to mind.

Here is a start for ammo capacities for various aircraft. Please add to the list as you like as these were the only manuals close by. These numbers are general in nature and your actual capacities may vary. Some numbers are from the internet so watch out



Fighters
P-40E 281 rounds per gun
P-51B&C 280 outboard 350 inboard guns
P-51D 400 inboard and 270 middle and outboard guns
P-47D 260 to 425

F6F-3 400 RPG
F4U 390 RPG

Turrets
Bendix upper (B-25) 400 rounds per gun
Bendix Chin (B-17G) 365 rounds per gun
Consolidated tail (B-24) 400 rpg
Sperry A-1, A-1A upper (B-17 E,F,G) 375 RPG
Sperry A-1B upper and A-1C (B-17G) 750 RPG
Sperry A-2, A-2A, A-2B, A-13 Ball turret (B-17, B-24) 500 RPG
Martin upper (B-24, A-20, PV-1, PV-2, PB4Y-2, B-26) 400 RPG

[JDK]

Thanks Taigh, fort contaminating beliefs with facts.

By the way, some may have missed this: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the- ... ilida.html
I'm with the compiler here - weight of anecdotes and unsourced references don't prove a thing.

I had heard and generally believed the tailor theory to be the most plausible.

Why? the tailoring analysis by Cecil on the Straight Dope cuts that to shreds. Hem.

The amount of cloth required for a man's three-piece suit varies with the man, but the average is about 4 to 4-1/2 yards measured off a 30-inch bolt. Cloth for men's suits is generally sold "double-width," meaning it's folded in half before being put on bolts. The actual cloth size is 60 inches wide. This works out to 6-2/3 to 7-1/2 square yards of cloth, well shy of the nine yards we're after, even for a good suit.

The fact that a suit is top quality doesn't mean it uses more cloth than the run-of-the-mill variety. If anything, according to one tailor I spoke to, custom-made suits use less cloth, since there's less waste during cutting. I talked to a number of tailors, one of whom had been in business 40 years. None had heard the expression "the whole nine yards" used in connection with the men's clothing business.

So an empty 'fact' not suit.

Regards,

[JFS61]

Anyone measured this out with a .30 cal belt? After all, that what the average infantrymen/Marine would have been most familiar with due to the ubiquitous presence of Browning .30 cal MG on the battlefield during WWII.

Also, as in the case of many such colloquialisms, keep in mind that most folk sayings (by their very nature) are not going to be scientifically or historically precise in regards to the subject matter that inspired them. The person who originated the saying could have either been mistaken in their belief, or simply rounded numbers up or down to make the phrase/saying scan better. After all, neither the whole 8 & 1/2, or whole 9 & 1/4 yards has quite the same ring, or roll off the tongue quite as well as the whole 9 yards does.

Last edited by JFS61 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Dave Hadfield]

A-hem indeed...

Yes, that refutation is all sewn up.

I'm still going with the ship thing. So many common expressions came from sail.

Dave

[JFS61]

A-hem indeed...

Yes, that refutation is all sewn up.

I'm still going with the ship thing. So many common expressions came from sail.

Dave

True, but why would this saying appear to have originated with Appalachian hill people and not New England fishing villagers (and why no references prior to the 1950's, long after the golden age of sail)?