Desirable Aircraft for National Museums

[Warbird Kid]

With all this talk on the former USMC Hellcat now going to the Collings Foundation, it got me wondering...

What are some other aircraft that the large musuems are seeking?

NNAM
NMUSAF
NASM
etc...

[JohnB]

Well, it's been reported here the MARS is headed for Florida. That's good news. Toob bad they can't get the mariner from Pima. (Nothing against Pima, but the sole remaining example of a type belongs with the service museum...IMHO).

I can't think of anything the NMUSAF doesn't have that still exists.

NASM doesn't seem to be big into Anerican warbirds....if it was, they would have had a B-24 and B-17 on display since they opened their new facility.
Plenty of room for Concorde and Axis high tech stuff but operationally inconsequential stuff: Ar-234, Do-335, Japanese submarine launched float plane...not so much for planes, designed, butilt, flown by "the greatest generation".

Interest in prewar civil aircraft have increased prices. The smaller large museums have been priced out of some of the nice antiques ....the Hamilton metalplane, a Ford Tri-Motr, and the Boeing 40 isn't for sale.

[StangStung]

I think you're missing some points there JohnB.

The Navy probably could get the Mariner from Pima if they really wanted to. They'd just have to get something to the NASM that it wanted as the Mariner belongs to the NASM.

The NASM has a fairly wide variety of US WWII aircraft on display both on the National Mall facility and at U-H. A quick glance at their website will tell you that (Wildcat, Corsair, Dauntless, P-40, P-47, P-51 (two, though one's a racer), P-38, P-61, B-29, etc.). They have a B-17 and a B-25, and a B-26, just awaiting their turns for resto. And that's a long line at NASM (there's a Helldiver getting the good treatment right now as I recall). Moreover, it's been discussed here several times that they'd love to get their hands on a B-24, there just aren't that many out there to get.

With respect to the Axis aircraft on display, those are one-off models that people from all over the world come to see. And we took them by winning the war - which is part of our national story as well. If you're going to pay for the B-17 restos, you want people to come through the door and buy some stuff at the gift shop. Having those unique aircraft there helps to do that.

And WWII isn't the only story NASM has to tell, is it? It's one of the greatest collections in the world (if not THE greatest) of telling not just the US story of aviation, but the entire history of aviation. It seems the complaints you raise are dare I say, a bit petty in context.

[JohnB]

And WWII isn't the only story NASM has to tell, is it? It's one of the greatest collections in the world (if not THE greatest) of telling not just the US story of aviation, but the entire history of aviation. It seems the complaints you raise are dare I say, a bit petty in context.

Yes they are petty, and I agree with the general theme of your comments.
It is the worldwide aviation technology museum..so it's nice we have a Concorde and 707...but if it's the worldwide repository of aviation history, they really need a Comet... but it's not as sexy or well known to the public as the SST, so it's probably not going to happen.

This is a warbird forum so I addressed the warbird situation as I see it.
But really, the new facility has been open a decade. Still no B-17 on display?
They could have had the Lackland B-24 by asking for it.
I don't mind them restoring the axis weird stuff (but you have to admit the Do-335 and the floatplane were dead ends)...but the management of their restoration queue leaves something to be desired.
As I've said before, it would have been nice to our great WWII aircraft enshrined while more of the people that built and flew them were stil alive.
Too much to ask for a publically funded national museum. asking them to display the aircraft that won the war ahead of technological oddities?

Could you imagine the Imperial War Museum without a Lancaster?

Last edited by JohnB on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Mike]

Pensacola have more issues with lack of hangarage than they have with lack of exhibits. The sole surviving AJ Savage has an inch of green standing water in the cockpit and so much condensation it is rotting away from the inside out. The relatively recently restored B-25 and PB4Y-2 Privateer are both looking very rough, and the newly-recovered Helldiver sits in the open air on the ramp. Why on earth would they look to add further large exhibits (with the exception of the Mars, which is a one-time opportunity) like the Mariner to the collection, when it is already under cover in a desert environment.

[StangStung]

And WWII isn't the only story NASM has to tell, is it? It's one of the greatest collections in the world (if not THE greatest) of telling not just the US story of aviation, but the entire history of aviation. It seems the complaints you raise are dare I say, a bit petty in context.

Yes they are petty, and I agree with the general theme of your comments.
It is the worldwide aviation technology museum..so it's nice we have a Concorde and 707...but if it's the worldwide repository of aviation history, they really need a Comet... but it's not as sexy or well known to the public as the SST, so it's probably not going to happen.

This is a warbird forum so I addressed the warbird situation as I see it.
But really, the new facility has been open a decade. Still no B-17 on display?
They could have had the Lackland B-24 by asking for it.
I don't mind them restoring the axis weird stuff (but you have to admit the Do-335 and the floatplane were dead ends)...but the management of their restoration queue leaves something to be desired.
As I've said before, it would have been nice to our great WWII aircraft enshrined while more of the people that built and flew them were stil alive.
Too much to ask for a publically funded national museum. asking them to display the aircraft that won the war ahead of technological oddities?

Could you imagine the Imperial War Museum without a Lancaster?

I could if it was in London - where in fact the original is and there is no Lanc - just a cockpit section (a la Flak Bait). How long did it take between the original IWM being opened and the opening of Duxford and getting a Lanc on display? Honest question, as I don't know the answer. Is there one? I know the RAF Museum in Hendon has one (just as the NMUSAF has a B-17 on display, soon to be three).

And as for planes that "won the war", quite arguably, the NASM has that - the Enola Gay, and any number of others I've already mentioned. All did their part and represent the WWII generation quite ably. Am I saying that I believe a B-17 shouldn't be on display? No. Am I saying that there aren't some gaps in the aviation story (including WWII) at the NASM? No. Could we argue about whether this plane should have gone ahead of that plane in resto line? Sure.

What I am saying is that, all things considered (lots of stories to tell with limited resources, space available, size of planes, etc.), I think the NASM has a pretty good representation and variety of planes on display to tell the WWII story.

Mike raises a good point for the NMNA which all museums have and can be repeated for NASM - limited resources (space, money, time) for virtually unlimited wants/desires ("new" planes to display, restos, and places to put them).

[SaxMan]

My understanding was the NASM wasn't looking for just "any" B-24, they wanted one with a documented combat history. Otherwise, they would have scooped up old Morris-Knudson LB-30 that was originally in Alaska and last I heard was in Ft. Collins, CO.

I was corresponding with an individual who was working on trying to acquire a B-24 for the NASM. At one point, the NASM was trying to recover a B-24 in Newfoundland that was a subchaser that had a confirmed (possibly two?) U boat kill. The original plan was to send a couple of T-33s north of the border in exchange for the airframe. From what I recall, the negotiations fell apart over jurisdiction. Because Newfoundland was quasi-independent from Canada when the plane crashed, Newfoundland asserted their jurisdiction on the airframe and the negotiations stalled out. The person who was the driving force behind this passed on and that was the last I heard about the deal.

[Warbird Kid]

My understanding was the NASM wasn't looking for just "any" B-24, they wanted one with a documented combat history. Otherwise, they would have scooped up old Morris-Knudson LB-30 that was originally in Alaska and last I heard was in Ft. Collins, CO.

I was corresponding with an individual who was working on trying to acquire a B-24 for the NASM. At one point, the NASM was trying to recover a B-24 in Newfoundland that was a subchaser that had a confirmed (possibly two?) U boat kill. The original plan was to send a couple of T-33s north of the border in exchange for the airframe. From what I recall, the negotiations fell apart over jurisdiction. Because Newfoundland was quasi-independent from Canada when the plane crashed, Newfoundland asserted their jurisdiction on the airframe and the negotiations stalled out. The person who was the driving force behind this passed on and that was the last I heard about the deal.

Im curious to hear / see more on this B-24. Never heard of it before.

[Red Baaron]

One thing I have never understood about restorations at the NASM is the time it takes them to complete some projects. I remember reading somewhere, many years ago, that it took something like eleven years to restore the Hurricane. I found that to be odd seeing as the first one restored in the UK that I remember reading about took considerably less time. It started out in worse shape, was nearly as authentic and that included building the tooling to replicate the tubes. I know the Hurrican is very complicated airframe but I just can't see it taking eleven years. Especially when they started with a pretty complete machine.

Does anybody know how many restorations they have turned out since 1980? I know the last several years have been slower due to the move to the new location and the closing of Silver Hill.

[Ken]

I think we are also finally seeing the value in conservation vs restoration. I applaud the NASM's decision to place the P-38 and P-61 on display as is and I hope that no true restoration is ever required if these airframes can be kept stable. I had expressed a desire that the A-1H Skyraider be pulled out of storage in the same manner and put in a position to be enjoyed until space allowed it to enter the workshop queue but an insider politely explained that this was not as easy as it sounded. Okay.

I also had a naive hope that Flak Bait could be assembled as is (soon) but I assume that she will require more work and research to ensure that she only goes together one time and stays together. Hopefully that will be essentially "as is" when it is finally displayed.

The B-17, we are told, will eventually be Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby, unless that has changed. I'd be happier with no B-17 at NASM in lieu of moving SSSB, but that's just me.

As far as B-24s go, I'm surprised that they would make combat history a show stopper, as many of their planes are not vets per se and considering the rarity of B-24s. I would think that, money for shipment permitting, the Barksdale B-24 could be theirs. I wonder if they would be willing to take a page from the 8th Museum in GA and accomplish much of the B-24 work in the direct view of visitors - just an idea.

As time rolls on, more airplanes will hopefully arrive intact and require little attention beyond deactivating systems. My standard has been the NMUSAF MH-53, still covered in dust from Iraq - what a great time capsule. Among my least favorite has been the repainting of the NMUSAF B-57 ... essentially ruining a period accurate scheme just to replicate another.

Taking a page from another thread, one of the soon to retire MC-130E's should be whisked into NASM straight from the ramp. The C-130 NASM has outdoors (an A model IIRC) looks like a weathered wreck. It would have to be less expensive to admit a fresh addition which requires no work.

Ken

[Warbirdnerd]

My understanding was the NASM wasn't looking for just "any" B-24, they wanted one with a documented combat history. Otherwise, they would have scooped up old Morris-Knudson LB-30 that was originally in Alaska and last I heard was in Ft. Collins, CO.

I was corresponding with an individual who was working on trying to acquire a B-24 for the NASM. At one point, the NASM was trying to recover a B-24 in Newfoundland that was a subchaser that had a confirmed (possibly two?) U boat kill. The original plan was to send a couple of T-33s north of the border in exchange for the airframe. From what I recall, the negotiations fell apart over jurisdiction. Because Newfoundland was quasi-independent from Canada when the plane crashed, Newfoundland asserted their jurisdiction on the airframe and the negotiations stalled out. The person who was the driving force behind this passed on and that was the last I heard about the deal.

Im curious to hear / see more on this B-24. Never heard of it before.

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b24regis ... al557.html

[Steve Nelson]

I think he was asking about the ASW B-24 in Newfoundland. I'd like to know more about that one myself.

SN

[SaxMan]

On the B-24: Mind you, I'm trying to reconstruct the details in my mind from e-mail exchanges from over a dozen years ago. I met the person on what used to be called the Heavy Bombers e-mail list. That became heavybombers.com, which later became armyairforces.com . It was a great list that had all kinds of active discussions between B-17 and B-24 veterans and those of the younger generations, like myself. I think one of the greatest compliments I ever received was from a B-17 veteran who said I would been glad to have me on his crew. Anyway, I digress.

The lack of the B-24 at the NASM was one of the topics bandied about. The discussion of a deal pending for a combat veteran B-24 was brought up. It was an RCAF B-24 used for anti-submarine work. It was officially credited with the sinking of a U-Boat. I can't recall if it was one or two, but odds are it was probably one. It ended up crashing in a wooded area in Newfoundland. While the plane was broken up, it was still reasonably complete.

A deal was in the works with the Canadian government to obtain this airframe, with the T-33s going north of the border in exchange for the B-24. The discussions even got detailed enough as to how the plane would be marked when it was brought down, as there was a desire to preserve its RCAF heritage. That was also weighed against the B-24s significant contribution to the AAF. One suggestion even went so far to do one side RCAF, one side AAF. It's not unprecedented, as NASM's Boeing 247 is painted similarly (although I think that particular airplane actually wore both schemes at one point in its life).

Where the deal fell apart was when the government of Newfoundland stepped in. Mind you, Newfoundland was a self governing dominion of the British Empire in World War II and not a part of Canada. Newfoundland asserted ownership of the airframe and the deal fell apart. I don't know if the airframe was ever recovered once Newfoundland stepped in, or if it is still out there. I seem to recall the good Colonel Rohr once talking about invading Canada to go find a B-24 some years back, but I may be mixing up my "Colonels".

I wish I could remember more details. I don't think this individual was "blowing smoke up our arses". If you want to know more about the person who was passing this information along, please PM me.

[Wildchild]

I don't know if the airframe was ever recovered once Newfoundland stepped in, or if it is still out there.

You wouldn't happen to have the details of the crash, or crash report, would you?

Even though it may be impossible based on the woodlands, google earth would be the best place to start

[AirJimL2]

The Liberator is RCAF Liberator 586/A. My understanding is parts are with the North Atlantic Aviation Museum and much of the aircraft is still in situ.

Jim