Question for you Canadians- about Harvards... others welcome

[gunnyperdue]

A bit of background... we've got an AT-6A that was built in LA for a 450 plane contract originally ordered by the French... the RAF took it over and sent airframes all over the commonwealth as Harvard II's. The serial we have is AJ832.... to the best of my knowledge that airplane was accepted in silver with RAF roundels on the fuselage and USAAF roundels on the wings, perhaps with yellow bands on the wings outboard of the attach angle cover. It was delivered to the RCAF and finally relinquished by them in 1961 when it came back to the US.

Additionally, it is my understanding that a significant number of these aircraft were flown to the border and then taxied across for delivery.

If our Canadian friends, or anyone else for that matter, has some information on this it would be very helpful.
-I would like to verify, or refute the story as I know it.... for this serial number, or as part of a batch
-Where it crossed, were it went
-What shade of Silver was used, and yellow if we can confirm that (I am interested in representing the airplane as it would have been delivered, not flown on active service)
-What was the color of the interior paint/ primer used (can't find that spec, was it different than USAAF?)
-What Font was used and what markings would have been painted on (would it have been different from USAAF airplanes?)
-Any pictures of that early era would be fantastic
-What the follow-on history of the airplane was if anyone can confirm it

We are going to use it in the Eagle Flying Museum training program, we also give rides, and other things. If ya'll can help me flesh out the history of this airplane, with verifiable information, I will put your name on the cowl we are using to honor it's past.... and if there is enough interest I will create a raffle for the winner to get a Fam ride in the airplane. http://eagleflyingmuseum.org/index-3.html

Help us establish AJ832 as a example of the enduring friendship between our two countries.

Thanks,
gunny

[TOM WALSH]

Gunny,

Hope this answers some of your questions.

AJ 832
North American

Harvard
Mk. II / IIR / 2


NA-76
76-3802




first date: 16 October 1941 - Taken on strength by No. 4 Training Command

Delivered to stored reserve. Issued from storage on 18 October 1941, for use by No. 34 Service Flying Training School at Medicine Hat, Alberta. To Aircraft Repair in Edmonton, Alberta for overhaul, 20 March to 15 May 1944. To storage with No.4 Training Command when completed. Issued from storage on 10 August 1944, for use by No. 2 Flying Instructors School at Pearce, Alberta. To No. 2 Air Command on 1 December 1944. To storage on 21 January 1945. Noted as frozen series on 7 July 1945. To workshop reserve at No. 10 Repair Depot on 9 October 1945. By 28 December 1945 stored by No. 10 RD at No. 3 Service Flying Training School at Calgary, noted as fitted with ATR11 radio on that date. To No. 2 Air Command on 4 May 1946, for use by No. 402 Squadron (Auxiliary) at Winnipeg, Manitoba. Noted on 30 November 1947 with 2521:15 total time, 474:30 since overhaul, condition good, fitment standard. On 11 March 1947 had 2554:10 total time, 507:25 since overhaul, condition fair, fitment standard. To Canada Car & Foundry for modifications, 10 September 1948 to 13 January 1949. Had 2713:05 logged time when it arrived. To Central Air Command when completed, for use by Flying Training School at RCAF Station Centralia, Ontario. Noted on 31 March 1949 with 2774:50 total time, 728:05 since overhaul. To No. 10 Technical Support Unit at North West Industries at Edmonton on 27 April 1955. To No. 10 Repair Depot at RCAF Station Lincoln Park on 13 December 1955, for installation of tail wheel de-clutch and electrical junction box. Noted by No. 1003 Technical Support Detachment on 28 December 1956 as fitted with radio compass. To Training Command at RCAF Station Trenton, Ontario on 19 February 1957. To RCAF Station Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan on 19 March 1957. To Inactive Reserve at Lincoln Park on 19 March 1959. Pending disposal from 18 December 1959. Sold to Davis Enterprises of Edmonton. To N.M. Rose of Vancouver, Washington, 1963 to 1971. Registered initially as N9798Z, re-registered as N832N in 1970. To B. Simonson of Mercer Island, Washington, 1973 to 1977. To R.L. Ferguson of Wellesley, Maine in 1984. To R.J. Colman of Quincy, Maine in September 1985. To Blue Sky Aviation of Spring, Texas on 16 July 1999. Finished as US Navy SNJ by 2004. Reported still airworthy with this owner in 2008.

last date: 18 October 1960 - Struck off, to Crown Assets Disposal Corporation for sale

[gunnyperdue]

Tom-

That's a great history of the airplanes RCAF service. I checked out Medicine Hat and it looks like it was there throughout most of the active life of that school. Cool.

Thanks,
gunny

[Asterperious]

Gunny, the only aircraft that I am aware of that were 'lost' at the border and secured by the RCAF were B-18 Digby's in the fall of 1939 in the Coutts-Sweetgrass area of Montana.

[gunnyperdue]

Gunny, the only aircraft that I am aware of that were 'lost' at the border and secured by the RCAF were B-18 Digby's in the fall of 1939 in the Coutts-Sweetgrass area of Montana.

I dug a little further and Roosevelt was able to overturn the Neutrality Act in Sept 1940. There were about 25-26 Texan/Harvards that were taxi/towed across the border just outside of Pembina, ND... including some number of Douglas Digby's. But apparently that stopped fairly early in the delivery program, way to early for AJ832 to be involved in it. So that fixes that part of the story.

gunny

[AirJimL2]

There is a book call HARVARD! The North American Trainers in Canada" by David C. Fletcher & Doug Macphail which should have all the answers. Sadly, I'm on the road so I'm working from memory, but it was a NA-76 not an AT-6A as it was purchased on a French contract not a US contract. When France fell the RAF took over the order I believe all of these aircraft were painted yellow and some did indeed have USAAF roundels on the wing for delivery. Some were towed across the border and some were flown.

If no one else can check the Fletcher/Macphail book before then, I'll take a look when I get home on Thursday.

Jim

[gunnyperdue]

Jim-

Thanks for the pointer. I found the book on Amazon and bought a copy.

gunny

[JDK]

Great history! Doug MacPhail posts here as 'MacHarvard', drop him a PM!

Just a note, the 'AJ832' serial number wouldn't relate to the French Air Force (Armee de l'Air) or Navy, but is a RAF British Commonwealth type number.

Regards,

[rcaf_100]

Not sure where the silver finish story came from, but from the factory AJ832 would have been finished similar to our own AJ583 minus the '46' buzz numbers.



I'm not at home at the moment but I'll check my references for the rest of the inquiries.

[rcaf_100]

I had a look at some references and I'll take another stab at it.
Unfortunately I can't seem to find my copy of the Fletcher/MacPhail book at the moment so I'll do my best.

For starters, your Harvard was ordered as a NA-76 by the French Armée de l'Air in 1940 as a follow up order to their NA-57 (export BT-9) and NA-64 (upgraded BT-9...some went to Canada as the Yale) orders. The NA-76 was practically identical to the RCAF-ordered NA-66 Harvard Mk II with the main exception being a radio mast ahead of the windscreen.
And when ordered, the aircraft would be referred to by the French as the NA-76, not AT-6A or Harvard.

As a side note, the NA-66, -75, -76, and -81 Harvards used in Canada were basically AT-6A's with extended exhausts for cockpit heating and a fixed rounded rear canopy section. (this is probably where the AT-6A description came from....)
There are a lot of other small changes that Doug (MacHarvard) can go into detail with.

Unfortunately before construction could start on the order (North American was busy building NA-66's at the time) France fell to the Nazis and the entire order was taken over by the RAF.
The 450 aircraft were given serial numbers AJ538-AJ987 and were delivered in between July 1941 and February 1942. Not sure where they crossed the border or if they were flown across or pushed by hand.

A good majority of the NA-76 Harvards were to be used at some of the RAF-operated Service Flying Training Schools (SFTS) in Canada.
The schools flying Harvards were No. 31 SFTS Kingston, Ontario, No. 34 SFTS Medicine Hat, Alberta, No. 37 SFTS Calgary, Alberta, and No. 41 SFTS Weyburn, Saskatchewan.
Most, if not all of the NA-76 Harvards serving in Canada were transferred over to the RCAF around 1943.

Here's a shot of AJ688 as delivered at RAF Picton, Ontario (No 31 Bombing & Gunnery School)
Notice the antenna mast ahead of the windscreen and the landing gear doors fitted. These were usually the first items to be removed as snow could accumulate between the door and tire/strut and sometimes cause the gear to freeze in the up position.


Here's a shot of AJ835 later on in the war at No. 37 SFTS Calgary


And here's a shot of a gaggle of Medicine Hat Harvards (notice the top hat on the white portion of the fin flash)


If you're interested, I can supply the font used for the serial number stencils. It's similar to the USAAF, but not quite.

And as far as I know NAA-built Harvards were probably chromate green (yellow chromate dyed with black ink) but I would love to be proved wrong.
I know for a fact that Noorduyn-built Harvards and any Harvards (and late-war Yales) overhauled by Noorduyn were painted Bronze Green on the insides, so post war AJ832 definitely would have been that colour.

I will also look to see if I can find any postwar photos of '832 for you.

[gunnyperdue]

RCAF_100

Great info thanks a bunch! I've got Hagedorn's T-6 book and it goes into some good detail. So I already knew some of the order/delivery info. Thanks to Tom Walsh we have a very good picture of its assignment history, delivery to civilian life.

What I'd really like is a spec, or reference to one that I can lay my hands on for the paint colors. I can't find a spec from NAA for the color (there are specs available for marking placement and other things, even for the RAF).... A dated photo, or a spec, would confirm whether the airplane was delivered in Yellow or Silver and I would very much like to have a spec to use as a reference. In the Ohlrich/Ethell book there is a picture of two AJ's supposedly at the Inglewood ramp prior to delivery... B&W but appear to be yellow and the caption says as much. I've seen a photo of AJ832 in cammo, and in Smith's book there is a color shot of AJ832 in cammo over silver (caption says its a Mk IV). There is a photo in one of these books of AJ838 in cammo, supposedly in the MTO in 1944.

I would very much like to have the font used, as it looks different than standard USAAF fonts, and there aren't many markings as such on the outside of the airplane. I'm going out the the museum today and will take a pic of the baggage compartment, it is a dark green color... maybe that is the 'Bronze Green' you mentioned.

A note about designations: In modern military aircraft manufacture the block number denotes major changes within the basic design..... F-16C-30, or -50denote major changes in engine and avionics, as well as an order batch. NAA used the block numbers as order batches and although there was some customer variation in spec within the block but predominately the block conformed to a particular over arching model designation.... USAAF/Navy designations were different for the same basic model. During WWII the USAAF used a completely different designation for the exact same airplane with a different engine (Boeing Kaydet PT-13D Lycoming R-680, or a PT-17 Cont. R-670), but for the most part, dash numbers represented changes to the basic model. The Navy used different dash numbers for different engines, for example N2S-3 or N2S-5. RAF terminology used a name/ Roman numeral sub-model descriptor.... I'm happy with calling this airplane an AT-6A, as that would be its descriptor if delivered to the USAAF... major identifiers a steerable tailwheel, USAAF style stick grips, no extended exhaust, nor as near as I can tell provision for mounting same. My previous airplane was an AT-6C that was given to the RAF, who shipped it directly to South Africa.... it had many model and even serial numbers. It all is an academic exercise anyway.

Thanks for all the help... it will be a colorful airplane.

gunny

[snj-5]

Great info RCAF_100, thanks. I'd be interested in the font as well, as I intend to paint/mark my Harvard II, RCAF 3134,
75-3048 as she looked when she rolled off the line at NAA's Inglewood plant in 1941.

Speaking of markings, did the 75- Mk-II Harvards not get an AJxxx serial number? The previous owner of RCAF 3134
painted it in spurious Mk-IV markings, but I'm guessing originally, it just had "3134" painted on it somewhere.

Bela P. Havasreti

[TOM WALSH]

Gunny,

The credit for the background on your aircraft belongs to R. W. Walker.

I merely passed on the information.

Cheers.

Tom Walsh.

[MacHarvard]

Bela, I have stayed out of this discussion so far for the simple reason that Shane and Tom are doing a top notch job. However, to answer your question regarding the NA-75 series of Mk IIs, they were construction numbers 75-3048/-3057 and 75-3418/-3507 with RCAF serials 3134/3233 - which brings up the point that you have the first production NA-75.

The AJs were from the next batch, the NA-76s. As already discussed, these aircraft were meant for France.

cheers
Doug

[snj-5]

Thanks Doug!

The picture becomes more clear, thanks to all the posts on this thread (I didn't know about the
2nd batch of Harvard IIs having been meant for France).

It was pointed out to me shortly after I bought RCAF 3134 that it was the 1st of the batch of
NA-75 airplanes. 75-3048 was also the "example" aircraft which was used to include the Inglewood-built
Harvard II serial numbered aircraft on the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the T-6 series aircraft.
There is paperwork in the batch of stuff I got from the FAA from the Chief, Engineering & Manufacturing
Branch (in 1961) where the FAA agreed the Inglewood-built Harvard II aircraft were eligible to be on the TCDS.

Bela P. Havasreti