Gabreski's P-47 in the "wrong hands"

Richard W. · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:18 pm

That's a great image. Thanks

I wonder whether "only" 28 victories would have impressed the Luftwaffe.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7818

Wow!!! now here's something interesting, well at least to me it is anyway. After a small bit of research I found Gabreski was interrogated by Hanns Scharff. Scharff has/had a very successful custom mosaic art business in Los Angeles (Scharff and Scharff) that his daughter now operates. I have used this business on a few of my projects in the past. Never knew the man's history beyond his business. Apparently he was one of Nazi Germany's top interrogators who interrogated some big named POW's including Gabreski. Interesting indeed.

Wiki:

Prisoner of war

On July 20, 1944, Gabreski had reached the 300-hour combat time limit for Eighth Air Force fighter pilots and was awaiting an aircraft to fly him back to the United States on leave and reassignment. He had already advised Kay Cochran to proceed with wedding plans, and his home town of Oil City, Pennsylvania, had raised $2,000 for a wedding present in anticipation of his return.[15]

However, Gabreski found that a bomber escort mission to Russelheim, Germany, was scheduled for that morning, and instead of boarding the transport, he requested to "fly just one more."[16] Returning from the mission, Gabreski observed Heinkel He 111s parked on the airfield at Bassenheim, Germany, and took his flight down to attack.

Gabreski's first strafing run on an He 111 was unsuccessful, and he reversed for a second pass. When his tracers went over the parked bomber he dropped the nose of his Thunderbolt to adjust, and its propeller clipped the runway, bending the tips.[17] The damage caused his engine to vibrate violently and he was forced to crash land. Gabreski ran into nearby woods and eluded capture for five days, but was eventually captured. After being interrogated by Hanns Scharff, Gabreski was sent to Stalag Luft I. He was liberated when Soviet forces seized the camp in April 1945.[18]

Here's a couple videos of Gabreski's P-47 in better days, or at least when it was still running in the "right hands"

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... in-cockpit

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... in-cockpit

And some nice "Gabby" gun camera film

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... d-Squadron

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7818

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7818

P-47 Thunderbolt pilot Lieutenant-Colonel Frances S. Gabreski of the 61st Fighter Squadron, 56th Fighter Group, climbs out of a P-47 Thunderbolt cockpit.

Lieutenant-Colonel Francis S. Gabreski, ace pilot of the 61st Fighter Squadron, 56th Fighter Group, stands with the ground crew who keep his P-47 Thunderbolt in fit shape for combat

Republic-P-47D-25-RE-Thunderbolt-42-26418-flown-by-Gabreski-after-belly-landing-near-Bassenheim-Germany-20-July-1944

JDK · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:29 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

Found this image to be very interesting. I wonder if the German's had any interest in keeping such "war prizes" as mementos during the war. Not as research of captured aircraft but as an artifact for display.

Sort of, but mostly both. There are photos of a German 'captured aircraft' display which was for technical study; included (IIRC) Spitfire, Lysander, Mustang II, Typhoon and others. The Berlin air museum, which had the Dornier Do X in the centre acquired a few captured aircraft in W.W.II which were displayed before the museum had some aircraft sent East (now in the Polish aviation museum) and the rest was destroyed in Allied bombing raids.

Quote:

Edit: What's also interesting is that if you watch the first two video's I linked in my second post (apparently filmed in June 1944) and look at the image above (July 1944) you'll notice that the upper invasion stripes are no longer visible on the wings and fuselage. Not too unusual but the camouflage seems not to have been painted over the stripes but the stripes wiped off the camouflage, which would lead me to think the stripes were painted with simple "water base" paint that could easily be washed off? Hmmm!!! was that the case with invasion stripes?

They were indeed 'removable' overpaint, and most modern restorations are misleading in having them as neat, permanent markings, often even on aircraft that didn't wear them, as well*.

The D Day stripes were always intended to be temporary markings for the intense period of the day of the landings and after. Many units 'cut back' the temporary paint to just the underside, upper side stripes being believed to compromise camouflage too much in air combat, while the benefits of retaining the underside stripes was evident as Allied troops were always trigger happy.

HTH.

*Ober, no. Just don't say it. Thanks.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:26 am

In the case of Gabreski's plane, it looks like the camo was re-sprayed over the upper invasion stripes, and none too neatly either. Note also how the original tail IFF stripe has partially peeled away from the vertical fin (taking the later camouflage with it) leaving bare metal.

The photos also clearly show that the fuselage stripes are the standard W/B/W/B/W. I've seen many models, artists' renderings, and even the Kalamazoo Air Zoo P-47 that depict the fuselage stripes as just white with thin black outlines..I've always thought that was a misinterpretation of photos that show white overspray oultining the tape from when they were masked off.

SN

Dan Johnson II · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 1:49 am **Posts:** 659

You gents do understand that there was a general progression of removal of the 'invasion stripes' I trust. First it was from upper wings and fuselage, then lower wings and lastly the fuselage stripes on the undersides. The lower stripes were often just the two black stripes by the end of 44. And the stripes tended to stay longer on the 9th AF birds flying ground attack then on the 8th AF birds ranging over Germany as escorts.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:59 am

Yes. However, two riders. A bit of checking suggests that the removal of uppersurface stripes was for camouflage of aircraft arriving in France after the invasion while on the ground. (A correction to my earlier statement.) My feeling is 'yes in part', because I'm sure upper surface stripes were removed more widely than from forward-deployed types.

Secondly, I have a recollection that the two black under fuselage stripe set as seen on Mk.XIV Spitfires and the like in late 1944 were actually nothing to do with remnant D Day stripes, and I'm sceptical of stripe sets having one colour removed; I don't recall and other examples than the Spitfire one (and I can't find or recall the ref, so the floor is open.) As Steve Nelson's said, despite the clear documentation and photos of these markings, they're often misinterpreted.

It's worth noting that orders for camouflage and markings were generally followed pretty quickly and accurately, when you consider there was a war on; the application of the stripes was across all required types on time, i.e. just before D Day, and generally correct (or corrected quickly). The removal was less tightly managed or directed, and there were lots of variations - there was, after all a war on.(!)

Regards,

k5083 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:39 am

JDK wrote:

A bit of checking suggests that the removal of uppersurface stripes was for camouflage of aircraft arriving in France after the invasion while on the ground. (A correction to my earlier statement.)

I was going to make that point but you jumped on it yourself.

In fact, much more of WWII aircraft camouflage than is generally recognized was for concealment (or at least to break up the outline) of the a/c on the ground rather than in the air.

August

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7818

Steve Nelson wrote:

The photos also clearly show that the fuselage stripes are the standard W/B/W/B/W. I've seen many models, artists' renderings, and even the Kalamazoo Air Zoo P-47 that depict the fuselage stripes as just white with thin black outlines.

SN

Steve I agree with you on this point as well. You can clearly see the difference in the posted links.

k5083 wrote:

I was going to make that point but you jumped on it yourself.

In fact, much more of WWII aircraft camouflage than is generally recognized was for concealment (or at least to break up the outline) of the a/c on the ground rather than in the air.

August

+1

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:50 am

Indeedy. Which is why the camouflage netting and trees for the wargames P-40s in one of Mark's other threads would get the camouflager shot; because it fails to break up the outline of the aircraft well enough to be effective. Why, even the LIFE photographer found them! :lol:

While back on to this thread, I'd suggest the majority of aircraft that had the upper-stripes removed were not based in France through the latter half of 1944 - consider the medium bombers and photo reconnaissance types. The risks of Luftwaffe overflight of their UK bases was small (though the Ju 86Ps were still working) another factor against the ground camouflage reason in this case.

Regards,

Richard W. · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:34 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

Wow!!! now here's something interesting, well at least to me it is anyway. After a small bit of research I found Gabreski was interrogated by Hanns Scharff. ...

Your post reminded me of Scharff's biography, which I hadn't looked at in 30 years and had forgotten most of it, including the part about Gabreski's capture and interrogation. (The Interrogator, with Raymond Toliver, Aero Pub., 1978)

The answer to my question about whether the Germans were impressed with Gabreski's record is yes.

Scharff said that everyone in Germany was aware of his exploits and his 56th Group was very highly respected by their Luftwaffe counterparts (as was the 4th FG). Scharrf even had a portrait of Gabreski hanging in his office for months before his downing. Word of his capture set off a sensation in Germany.

(from p. 277)

Quote:

My Kommandant wanted to know [what Gabreski was like], the German fighter pilots wanted to know, the newspapers, even the office girls were eager to get a glance at him. Berlin and Paris headquarters were overly curious. We had caught a big fish and everyone seemed to know it, ...

They became friends, even before the end of the war. Scharff brought Gabreski to Catholic Mass at a nearby town as a guest and gave him gifts of food in the POW camp.

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:33 pm

But where did the Shark Teeth go?

Rocketeer · **Joined:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:16 pm **Posts:** 195

JDK wrote:

Mark Allen M wrote:

Found this image to be very interesting. I wonder if the German's had any interest in keeping such "war prizes" as mementos during the war. Not as research of captured aircraft but as an artifact for display.

Sort of, but mostly both. There are photos of a German 'captured aircraft' display which was for technical study; included (IIRC) Spitfire, Lysander, Mustang II, Typhoon and others. The Berlin air museum, which had the Dornier Do X in the centre acquired a few captured aircraft in W.W.II which were displayed before the museum had some aircraft sent East (now in the Polish aviation museum) and the rest was destroyed in Allied bombing raids.

Do any WIXers have photos of the "Berlin Air Museum" they would like to show? The Heinkel He 178 would have been there. How many WWI era aircraft were displayed there?

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Gabreski's P-47 in the "wrong hands"

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