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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:30 am 
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PinecastleAAF wrote:
Fifi will be fine. Don't burn up your warbirds yet. This comes around almost every year and it always gets worked out. Hey, at least they guy is a Republican, right? :wink:


(R) isn't a saving grace in this instance. BS is instantly recognizable whether it comes from a (R) or a (D).

Mudge the BS expert :shock:

(HMMM...That could be interpreted a couple of ways, couldn't it?)

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:16 pm 
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He sounds like a Rino (Republician In Name Only

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:31 pm 
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This comes around almost every year and it always gets worked out.


THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT !

This language blocks any chance of any govt aircraft being transferred for operational purposes. It specifically states STATIC ONLY ! Please read the actual filed language.

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Now, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as though this form of the Turner Amendment would not effectively ground or impact aircraft that were sold post-WWII and post-Korea as "Surplus" property by the War Department as such surplus sales were not considered a "loan" in any form... right? If that's true, then this particular piece of legislative B.S. won't immediately impact most existing "civilian" warbird operations, correct? The only major exception of currently operating aircraft is the potential risk of the Collings Foundation's F-4 Phantom and A-4 Skyhawk program as they were transferred by a Congressional Deed of Gift (in my opinion, the lawyers could wrangle for years as to if a "Gift" was defined as a "Loan" per se).

Regardless, the real risk at hand is the historic flying display of any mothballed or current military aircraft in DoD hands that may be transferred to civilian hands. In addition, I would assume that it would apply to any green-tagged powerplants or components being "Sold" (or "loaned") to support current civilian flying programs, right? That obviously impacts many of the salvage yards that are bolstering inventory to support civil owners of out-of-service, but still in decommissioned inventory aircraft parts (thinking about T-33's, Huey's, Cobras, A-4's, T-37's, etc). That said, those types of companies should be very concerned as well, since it takes a significant portion of their business away as well!

Fight this legislation hard and spread the word around wherever you can! The only way to change the tide is to educate your representatives and their staff as to how harmful it could be to not only business, but also our National heritage!!

Thanks,
Ryan

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Folks, this is a very serious threat, in my opinion. You might want to read the following press release put out by the CAF just a short time ago. While it specifically notes the threat to our B-29 "FIFI", it may add some information some may not yet know or suspect. The CAF is in this fight with other warbird operators. As a member of our board of directors, I am not speaking for the CAF, as that is the job of our President/CEO Steve Brown, who is leading this fight for the CAF. Randy

MIDLAND, TEXAS (April 20, 2012) – Congressman Michael Turner, an Ohio Representative, is gunning to ground the only flyable Boeing B-29 Superfortress in the world, FIFI! The Commemorative Air Force (CAF) and other leading organizations in the Warbird and General Aviation Community are joining voices in opposition of an amendment proposed by Rep. Turner (R-OH) to the House National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 4310) that, if allowed to pass, would have a devastating effect on civilian operated historic military aircraft.

The amendment to H.R. 4310, “Title 10,” would bar the Department of Defense (DoD) from loaning or gifting any United States military aircraft or aircraft parts to any entity except those that would put the aircraft on static display, such as in a museum. Organizations like the CAF would no longer be allowed to conduct flight operations in these DoD “loaned” vintage aircraft in an effort to teach history and remind Americans of the sacrifices for freedom.

Rep. Turner is a former mayor of Dayton, Ohio, home to the National Museum of the United States Air Force (NMUSAF). The CAF was involved in a lawsuit with the U.S. Air Force two years ago, which was spearheaded by the NMUSAF, regarding ownership of the F-82 Twin Mustang. Though the aircraft was donated to the CAF in the early 1970s, the lawsuit and subsequent appeal resulted in the rare aircraft being dismantled and shipped to the NMUSAF in 2009, where it sits permanently grounded. The donation and operation agreement for the F-82 was very similar to another CAF Warbird, the Boeing B-29 Superfortress FIFI.

“Apparently, Representative Turner doesn’t want children given the opportunity to be inspired by the only flying example of the aircraft that ended World War II,” said CAF President/CEO Stephan Brown. “The Queen of the CAF Fleet and the world’s only flying B-29, FIFI is possessed by the CAF as a ‘Conditional Donation’ from the NMUSAF. This means that the airplane is permanently ours as long as we meet certain conditions of care for the airplane. We also have a subsequent agreement to allow the CAF to conduct flight operations with FIFI – and so we have for nearly 40 years. The only way the NMUSAF could ground FIFI is if the law were changed such that it make it illegal to fly her and Representative Turner hopes to change the law to do just that!”

The CAF has strictly adhered to the requirements of the “Conditional Donation” since it’s original execution in 1971 and amendment to include flight operations in 1974; therefore, the only legal method to require cessation of flight operations of the B-29 and other DoD donated Warbirds operated by organizations like the CAF is to implement laws like the proposed amendment.

“While the NMUSAF leadership has historically opposed Warbird operations, the U.S. Air Force has been among the Warbird community’s most avid supporters,” said Brown. “For years, FIFI and other aircraft of the CAF Fleet have been the stars of Air Force Open Houses and Air Shows at bases across the country. The CAF and other Warbird organizations perform on behalf of the USAF to boost their recruiting efforts and continue sharing the history of American Military Aviation. It appears that the USAF and its national museum send conflicting messages regarding their view of the future of Warbird operations.”

Since her return to flight in the Fall of 2010 following an extensive re-engining project, FIFI has been featured in publications like FLYING, AIRCRAFT, Warbird Digest, and the Wall Street Journal. Through these publications and her appearances at airshows and aviation events across the country, FIFI has touched the lives of tens of thousands of Americans and shared the story of the Greatest Generation. Should the proposed amendment be allowed to pass, FIFI would be relegated to a static display in a museum where her reach would be limited to only those who were able and interested in traveling to her. Meanwhile, the sounds of her engines and sight of her in the skies could no longer inspire children to learn about the history of American Military Aviation or remind adults of the sacrifices made for our freedoms.

The total Warbird community is made up of nearly 1,000 aircraft, including those used in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. The operation of these aircraft provides access to millions of people who would not otherwise be able to learn about the history of American Military Aviation and the men and women who built, serviced and flew these important airplanes. They are a major attraction at hundreds of civilian and military air shows around the world and educate people about the role they played in securing the freedoms we enjoy today.

In 1957, a small group of ex-service pilots pooled their money to purchase a P-51 Mustang, beginning what is now called the Commemorative Air Force (CAF). With the addition of a pair of F8F Bearcats, the CAF became the founders of the Warbird Movement, an effort to preserve and honor our military history with the rallying cry to “Keep ‘Em Flying!” Now 55 years later, the CAF is the premier Warbird organization operating 156 vintage aircraft in Honor of American Military Aviation. A non-profit educational association, the CAF has approximately 9,000 members and it’s fleet of historic aircraft are distributed to 74 units located in 27 states for care and operation. For more information, visit http://www.commemorativeairforce.org or call (432) 563-1000.


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:47 pm 
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NMUSAF and AF Chief Historian Andreag are on record as saying that they are against flying aircraft. Yet they had NO problem tagging along with the 20 civilian operators who CHOSE to bring their B-25s to NMUSAF to honor the remaining Doolittle Raiders. Without their cooperation the NMUSAF would have only been able to honor these brave heroes with a dinner , at best. I heard Matt on Warbird Radio state that there were several 3 stars and a bunch of high ranking officers in attendance. I wonder how impressive the ceremony would have been if the runway was empty ? Yet they, and their predecessors continue their efforts to block these aircraft from being released to qualified organizations, who only want to keep the memory of the vets who flew and maintained these aircraft alive. They are spending your tax dollars against you, because they are convinced that they know what is best for you. Write an email or a letter and send it to Rep Turner and EVERY member of the House Armed Services Committee. Get this section pulled ! Rep Turner filed the language, maybe we, and our colleagues can convince him to pull it !

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:22 pm 
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This isn't all that is going on right now. We're in some gray politics areas here, and there is more to the story than just this legislation potentially grounding aircraft. For the record, as a warbird owner, pilot, and vintage parts dealer I fully support organizations which fly their aircraft in a careful, responsible way.

But if you weren't aware, there have been some real hinky/questionable efforts on the part of certain government agencies to control the flight of warbird aircraft. I'm speaking of the Munitions list, which is a DOD/State Department/BATF joint effort to ostensibly control the potential loss of vital military technology to foreign governments. The munitions list is a listing of items which are designated to be controlled in their distribution AFTER their sale to a private party by auction/transfer/deed gift, etc. What it means practically is that if you buy a certain part which is on the list, you can only sell it to approved purchasers. Better described, you can't sell the part to NON-approved purchasers, like Iran. As a seller, you are required to track who gets the item. Items sold are given a demilitarization code prior to sale by DOD. There are various requirements on how to handle the item after purchase; these range from no requirements all the way to complete destruction of the item. Some of the codes prevent foreign sale of the items.

What has been happening is that the demil codes have been getting changed retroactively. What this means is you may have purchased an item 20-30 years ago with a certain demil code applicable, allowing you to do certain things with that item. But the demil code is then changed after the fact, and you as owner are required to comply with the new demil code restrictions. This has been getting done on certain items which make no sense- for example, Grumman F9F parts. If you haven't heard of this, it is because it effects a very small demographic of parts dealers. But it is hurting them all in a way- they possess stock that they now can't sell, and which they must put effort into ensuring that parts like F9F parts don't make it into the wrong hands.

According to sources, these demil changes have involved visits from three letter agencies to "verify" that you are complying with the provisions. And it involves the all-too-subtle gang-probing that the US G loves to do to people who don't have a choice in the matter.

I'm the first person to say that Iran shouldn't get F-14 parts. But how are you stopping that by changing demil codes on F9F parts? Somehow, I don't get that logic. I think this potential legislation is more of the same- trying to kill flies with hammers when the flies aren't in the same room.

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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Is it possible to rename this thread to include "Title 10" as part of the name?


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 Post subject: Re: Here we go again
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Avnut wrote:
Is it possible to rename this thread to include "Title 10" as part of the name?

Done

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Title 10 is just part of the US Code that consolidate the laws the govt operates by. Title 10 is for Armed Forces.

The language submitted is an amendment to the House Armed Services Defense Authorization Bill for 2013. It would amend the existing Title 10 Section 2572.

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