Warbird Information Exchange

On the other hand, Boeing engineering said many times over the years that you could eliminate every third HILOK and accompanying hole in a 727 and still operate it safely for 35 years.
As far as during the war, I don't think the Reichsluftministerium looked @ crashed aircraft and during the later parts of the war, the airplanes were built in basements and kitchens by Oma and Opa und der kinder with narry a yet to be invented HILOK to be seen. So who would really know? it took movie footage and dilligent investigation of accidents to show the U.S.A.A.F what was causing the wings to tear off of early P-51's, just like it took movie footage of one shredding itself shown to the Generals to get them to stop going ahead with the plywood He-162 VOLKSJAGER.
And it's cultural perceptions too, the Imperial Army couldn't believe that the Americans would sacrifice so may vehicles to get one guy back where they would gladly sacrifice dozens of troops to get a truck back.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Someone needs to find the guys that did that & weld their toolboxes shut.....Untrained monkeys could do a better job.

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

From what I can see the rivets do not show any signs of "dishing", Caused by over stressing. I also see that the rivets were to long. Judging by the tails. If the rivets were stressed due to over load the wing, then there would be a clear break in the paint surrounding the rivet head. It like the countersinks are to deep on the affected fasteners. Having dealt with the LBA I can assure you they are very very thorough before granting an airworthiness certificate! But we are all human and all of us makes mistakes and miss things. I dont feel the need to be harsh on the mechanics, Flug Werk or the pilot. Perhaps corrective action will be made and this will be all in the past?

I don't know what rivets you are looking at, but after 45+ years of doing, inspecting, and teaching riveting and holding an A&P license, what I see are fasteners that are too short given the paper thin bucktails on the drilled out examples in photo #3.
Since we do not have photos of the heads on the fasteners that are gapped between the parts shown in photo #1, how can you make a judgement that the heads weren't dished?
I guess we should just let things be and wait for a catastrophic and fatal accident instead of being proactive towards safety. I've seen people go to jail for simular lack of proper workmanship.
I'm certain the old hands around here will tell you what a hawk I am on doing work correctly and in a safe manner since I don't want to see anyone die because of stupidity.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

If anyone wants to duplicate the look of the skin on the wing, just drive the rivets with a 32oz ballpein hammer

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Inspector,

The deep countersink and poor shop heads are evidence of very poor workmanship, but isn't that sort-of beside the point, since the failures all appear to be in the shank, not the heads? I am wondering if they might have used A instead of AD rivets? My computer is not sharp enough to see dimples in the heads (I can't see any but would not claim to know based on the computer photo). Based upon the shank failures and really flattened shop heads, I would be really curious to know if those are A rivets.

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Rob C

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. “

– Michael Crichton

Now THAT is a very frightening concept to ponder!!!!!!!!
For those who don't know 'A' rivets are dead soft, AD's are pretty much the standard structural rivet.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

I don't know if those are shank failures, they look like the rivets being drilled and punched out.

You are able to enlarge the photos if you push "Ctrl" & the "+" keys at same time. In second an third photo it is very clear that the counter sink is the much. Photo four of drilled rivets clearly show rivet tails that are to long and have been driven to much. Look again while photo is enlarged.

I see exactly one (1) fairly acceptable bucktail and that's the second fastener in the top row. That fastener and it's two companions appear to have been sheared off @ a gap between two parts (nice, clean perpendicular & smooth break) due to excessive sideways parts shift and they exhibit no signs of having been drilled out @ the break between the tail/shank piece and the rest of the shank. All the rest of the bucktails are too thin indicating the fasteners involved are at least one grip length too short (or the holes were oversized and the shooter was hoping to fill the holes with shank) and they exhibit being 'smeared' as they were bucked caused by not holding the bucking bar level and in place while the fastener was being driven which leads to the illustrated shop head being pushed off to one side of the shank instead of centered over it. Those rivets are as a group unacceptable and I would write them up as defective and in need of correct replacing, and I am a member of the 'million hole club' which should tell you I've seen and installed a freight train car full of fasteners in my career and drilled and filled about an acre of holes in airplanes. What's your level of experience?

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

*pees on everybody's boots*

I just wanted to play too guys.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Mr. Inspector et al, very good summation IMHO. Could it be that the poster in question in your discussions may be involved with the issue? Just saying!

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“With bottomless pockets...anything is possible”

D-FWMV: Is this the new chrome cowled 190 at MeierMotors?

That very thought came to mind with his first 'defensive posture' posting, I tend to believe there's some serious three legged cat in loose sand going on here.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Wondering the same thing, who owns this aircraft & who worked on it?

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.