Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:49 am
In a brief article on a recently restored Il-2 Shturmovik that I have written for Aviation History magazine, I wrote that the restoration "has a handed Allison engine, possibly from a P-38, to match the original airplane's 'backward' prop rotation."
My editor is questioning the use of the word "handed" in that fashion.
Question: Is he right to do so? I have always referred to "backward-rotating" aircraft engines as "handed," but perhaps it's a British word that's little-known among U. S. aviation people. Or perhaps my use of it is flat wrong.
Opinions?
My editor is questioning the use of the word "handed" in that fashion.
Question: Is he right to do so? I have always referred to "backward-rotating" aircraft engines as "handed," but perhaps it's a British word that's little-known among U. S. aviation people. Or perhaps my use of it is flat wrong.
Opinions?
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:25 am
I'll bet they simply forgot the word "right" or "left", as in "right-handed" or "left-handed" (referring to the direction of crankshaft rotation).
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:10 am
Stephan Wilkinson wrote:In a brief article on a recently restored Il-2 Shturmovik that I have written for Aviation History magazine, I wrote that the restoration "has a handed Allison engine, possibly from a P-38, to match the original airplane's 'backward' prop rotation."
My editor is questioning the use of the word "handed" in that fashion.
Question: Is he right to do so? I have always referred to "backward-rotating" aircraft engines as "handed," but perhaps it's a British word that's little-known among U. S. aviation people. Or perhaps my use of it is flat wrong.
Opinions?
I believe it would be call Right or Left Handed Tractor.
This refers to the direction the prop turns and whether the prop is at the front (Tractor) or at the rear (Pusher).
Engine turns opposite the Prop given it is a geared engine in a normal V-12 with a small pinion gear on the crank and a larger gear on the prop shaft. The pinon gear would have to turn opposite the prop shaft gear.
Normal in the US is R/H Tractor for aircraft engines.
The P-38 had engines which rotated each direction. L/H was on the R/H side and R/H was on the Left.
In this case the L/H Tractor Allison was installed on the Il-2 to match the direction the original Russian Propeller would have rotated.
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:56 am
Yes, I understand all of that and I know perfectly well how how counterrotating engines work and why, but what I'm asking is how familiar to Americans the phrase "a handed engine" is. It's common usage in the UK aviation world, and no, they (the British) haven't forgotten to precede it with the word "left" or "right." So far, I'm getting the feeling that it's not a familiar usage to us.
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:19 pm
This may be redundant but, Everything on an aircraft is 'left' or 'right' based on the pilots point of view, normally looking forward. The flat surfaces of propellers are the 'face' because that portion is what 'faces' the pilot, and the 'back' is the curved portion that would be on the side away from the pilots view no matter where the prop is located on the airframe.
Since most American reciprocating engines (and most jet engines too) on aircraft turn 'clockwise' (in the pilots viewpoint) that is considered 'normal' in most of the world that uses American built engines on their aircraft. Lots of aircraft engines built in England, France, Italy, Russia, and other nations over the years turn counter clockwise' when viewed from the pilots perspective. Automotive engines turn 'counterclockwise' or you'd have four reverse gears and a single, REALLY low forward gear because of transmissions and third members.
The inability for some to grasp this 'norm' (or never made aware of it) in aviation leads to some serious problems, a good example would be the BRITISH MIDLAND 737-400 crash in Jan of 1989. Since it was a new subtype and uses digital flight info displays (FADEC) instead of steam gages when the left engine started coughing up parts on descent with the noise makers retarded, the pilot asked the FA to look out the cabin windows and tell him what she saw, the FA, facing the AFT END of the cabin looked out the windows, saw the left engine flaming and said ''ere, it's the right one innit' because she was looking to HER right, the Captain then bagged the good right engine and the aircraft crashed into the berm @ the end of the runway @ East Midlands airport killing 47 of 118 SOB.
When we ran ALLISONS in the hydroplane. we sought out left handed engines because they turned 'the right way' for our gearboxes and prop rotaton as the engines went in the boat back to front with the carb up front and the torque helped make 6500 pounds of 'hauling' plywood turn left when you got to the yellow bouy. ALLISONS can have their rotation reversed but it's a process requiring a very stout hoist to turn the crank end for end and changing alignment indexes on other parts, it's like a DETROIT DIESEL truck engine, they can be reversed in rotation to fit application.(same company)
Since most American reciprocating engines (and most jet engines too) on aircraft turn 'clockwise' (in the pilots viewpoint) that is considered 'normal' in most of the world that uses American built engines on their aircraft. Lots of aircraft engines built in England, France, Italy, Russia, and other nations over the years turn counter clockwise' when viewed from the pilots perspective. Automotive engines turn 'counterclockwise' or you'd have four reverse gears and a single, REALLY low forward gear because of transmissions and third members.
The inability for some to grasp this 'norm' (or never made aware of it) in aviation leads to some serious problems, a good example would be the BRITISH MIDLAND 737-400 crash in Jan of 1989. Since it was a new subtype and uses digital flight info displays (FADEC) instead of steam gages when the left engine started coughing up parts on descent with the noise makers retarded, the pilot asked the FA to look out the cabin windows and tell him what she saw, the FA, facing the AFT END of the cabin looked out the windows, saw the left engine flaming and said ''ere, it's the right one innit' because she was looking to HER right, the Captain then bagged the good right engine and the aircraft crashed into the berm @ the end of the runway @ East Midlands airport killing 47 of 118 SOB.
When we ran ALLISONS in the hydroplane. we sought out left handed engines because they turned 'the right way' for our gearboxes and prop rotaton as the engines went in the boat back to front with the carb up front and the torque helped make 6500 pounds of 'hauling' plywood turn left when you got to the yellow bouy. ALLISONS can have their rotation reversed but it's a process requiring a very stout hoist to turn the crank end for end and changing alignment indexes on other parts, it's like a DETROIT DIESEL truck engine, they can be reversed in rotation to fit application.(same company)
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:57 pm
"Handed" is definitely a British usage and it would be a good idea, I suggest, if you prefixed it with right or left to make it clear to North American readers. The term is often used over here for car (sorry, auto!) parts where, for example, a rear light cluster will only fit one side and not the other. In other words, a pair are not interchangeable.
As Charles Dickens or Churchill or somebody said: "Two great nations divided by a common language!"
As Charles Dickens or Churchill or somebody said: "Two great nations divided by a common language!"
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:12 pm
Dave Smith wrote:The term is often used over here for car (sorry, auto!) parts where, for example, a rear light cluster will only fit one side and not the other. In other words, a pair are not interchangeable.
Careful because you might start confusing everybody with other 'British' car explanations of N/S (near side) and O/S (off side)!
Bomberboy
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:41 pm
Got it. I will clarify the usage, and I think I'll not use the word "handed" at all. Thanks.
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:54 pm
Bomberboy wrote:Careful because you might start confusing everybody with other 'British' car explanations of N/S (near side) and O/S (off side)!
We could have some fun with that! There are many British automotive terms that are "foreign"
to us Yanks: The engine is under the bonnet.
Your luggage is carried in the boot.
A car with a retractable soft top is a drophead coupe'.
A four-door car with a fixed metal top is a saloon.
The fuel/air mixture is ignited by sparking plugs.
The fuel tank contains petrol.
The car rolls on tyres.
That classy car with the leaper on the hood is a Jag-u-er (as opposed to the American "Jagwire").
Yep, we definitely speak English here in the States.
But seriously, folks, this is an interesting thread. I'd never heard the term "handed" used by itself before, so I'm glad to say that once again I've learned something new by reading WIX!
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:07 pm
Several years ago, I was driving around England on a travel-magazine assignment, and everywhere I saw signs saying "Boot Sale Saturday," I was surprised to find that there were so many Brits looking for shoe bargains, but I finally realized it meant what we'd call a "trunk sale," if there were such a thing. It's the Brit equivalent of a yard sale, and since they don't have yards, for the most part, they sell the odds and ends out of the open trunks of their cars, parked in convenient turnoffs. Live and learn.
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:57 pm
It might be solely British useage, but I don't think we'd use handed to describe one engine. Well, I wouldn't anyway...
We'd describe the aircraft, DH Hornet, Westland Whirlwind, P-38 Lightning as having handed engines but the engines separately would be called left-hand or right hand rotation.
Then I'd get confused because I can never remember which is which.
We'd describe the aircraft, DH Hornet, Westland Whirlwind, P-38 Lightning as having handed engines but the engines separately would be called left-hand or right hand rotation.
Then I'd get confused because I can never remember which is which.
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:29 pm
I always thought the propellers were handed. I've read a lot of British books, though.
Chris...
Chris...
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:50 am
k5dh wrote:We could have some fun with that! There are many British automotive terms that are "foreign"
A car with a retractable soft top is a drophead coupe'.
It is also called a rag top, drop top and good old plain convertible.
k5dh wrote:A four-door car with a fixed metal top is a saloon.
I got one of those.
Normally the engine drives through a gearbox which then drives through a 'diff' (differential - rear axle in old money) and if it's a rear wheel drive motor, then you are likely to find a prop (propshaft) between these two items.
The Brits also have wheels on their cars as opposed to rims?
k5dh wrote:Yep, we definitely speak English here in the States.
To the extent that there are English:British and English:United States selections for various computer hardware/software elements.
But it's all good
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:28 am
WWII aircraft manuals have an American to British Glossary at the rear of the manual.
Don't start me on British Aeroplane manuals. I have a stack that would be around 4' high for the Spit.
The WWII versions lack torque call outs for tightening hardware.
They use "Nip it with the short bar."
Don't start me on British Aeroplane manuals. I have a stack that would be around 4' high for the Spit.
The WWII versions lack torque call outs for tightening hardware.
They use "Nip it with the short bar."
Re: Handed engines--is that the correct word?
Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:40 am
A couple of corrections:
"...a good example would be the BRITISH MIDLAND 737-400 crash in Jan of 1989. Since it was a new subtype and uses digital flight info displays (FADEC) instead of steam gages when the left engine started coughing up parts on descent with the noise makers retarded, the pilot asked the FA to look out the cabin windows and tell him what she saw, the FA, facing the AFT END of the cabin looked out the windows, saw the left engine flaming and said ''ere, it's the right one innit' because she was looking to HER right, the Captain then bagged the good right engine and the aircraft crashed into the berm @ the end of the runway @ East Midlands airport..."
The use of digital displays vs. the older "steam" gages did cause them to shutdown the wrong engine nor did the F/A stating is was the "right engine". The accident report states they heard from no one in the back.
"...a good example would be the BRITISH MIDLAND 737-400 crash in Jan of 1989. Since it was a new subtype and uses digital flight info displays (FADEC) instead of steam gages when the left engine started coughing up parts on descent with the noise makers retarded, the pilot asked the FA to look out the cabin windows and tell him what she saw, the FA, facing the AFT END of the cabin looked out the windows, saw the left engine flaming and said ''ere, it's the right one innit' because she was looking to HER right, the Captain then bagged the good right engine and the aircraft crashed into the berm @ the end of the runway @ East Midlands airport..."
The use of digital displays vs. the older "steam" gages did cause them to shutdown the wrong engine nor did the F/A stating is was the "right engine". The accident report states they heard from no one in the back.