Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Sun Jun 22, 2025 2:22 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Fabric control surfaces
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:56 pm
Posts: 87
Can anybody explain the process of covering fabric control surfaces and what type of material is used? My dad posed the question today and i have to admit, i never thought about it. His best idea was using damp fabric and heating it after application to shrink it. I would think that would be a nice way to start some corrosion. Thanks - Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:12 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:43 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: Marietta, GA
Basically, you drape loose fabric over the surface. Then you pull most of the wrinkles out and glue the fabric down at the edges. Generally, you need at least a 1" glue line. Repeat the process on the other side of the surface.

If you are using today's dacron fabrics, you use a calibrated iron at specific temperatures to shrink the fabric taught. After that, you mechanically attach the fabric to the intermediate structure using rib stitches, screws, or other appropriate means.

Once that process is finished, you apply reinforcing tape across all of the fasteners, across any seams, and around the perimeter of the assembly. You also reinforce other points like inspection holes, airframe protrustions, etc.

Then you prime and paint the fabric.

That's a generic description. Each covering system (and there are 4 or 5 I can think of) is slightly different and requires different glues, primers, and procedures.

Stewart Systems (one of the covering systems) has quite a few videos on Youtube if you're interested in the details of how to apply their product(s).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:56 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 1185
Location: Chandler, AZ
Old-school would be cotton (or linen for older-school) sewn to shape, misted with water (not much) to start the tautening and attached mechanically - sewn, screwed, clipped what have you. Then multiple coats of nitrate or butyrate dope are applied. The dope, like lacquer, shrinks as it dries tightening the fabric as if goes.
Doped cotton can have a life as short as six months, or several years depending on the color. Yellow is one the short lived ones, which is why the USAAF switched to silver on training aircraft. Modern synthetic coverings can have lives of decades.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:05 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:52 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Hudson, MA
I remember being taught that with original fabrics, cotton or linen. After the misting a few coats of a taughtening dope were used and afterward none taughtening dope was used. It is possible to warp and even break structure under the fabric if too much taughtening dope is used or if too high a heat is applied to the modern synthetic fabrics. Years ago one of the alphabet groups offered a J-3 Cub as a prize and you could see that the wing tip bows were warped from the fabric being too tight.

_________________
"I can't understand it, I cut it twice and it's still too short!" Robert F. Dupre' 1923-2010 Go With God.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:32 pm
Posts: 791
Location: Wiesbaden, Germany
Kind of off topic but IMHO anyone using old style linen and dope is guilty of criminal negligence. The old linen and dope are incredibly flammable and that's very dangerous. the ceconite/ poly fiber type systems are so much better.
If the airplane is a flyer that goes double.

_________________
All I did was press this red button here...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:56 pm
Posts: 87
So in an over-simplified way it works just like the balsa wood and tissue paper kits I built as a kid.

So, a follow-up question: How did they maintain the fabric control surfaces of WWII aircraft? Provided an aircraft stayed in theater long enough and didn`t have the fabric turned to swiss cheese by flak, did they just swap surfaces with a second set so that the airplane could stay mission ready?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:20 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:43 pm
Posts: 1175
Location: Marietta, GA
17f wrote:
So in an over-simplified way it works just like the balsa wood and tissue paper kits I built as a kid.

So, a follow-up question: How did they maintain the fabric control surfaces of WWII aircraft? Provided an aircraft stayed in theater long enough and didn`t have the fabric turned to swiss cheese by flak, did they just swap surfaces with a second set so that the airplane could stay mission ready?


Possibly. But field repairs on cotton/dope could be made very quickly. Dope dries fast and they weren't interested in cosmetics. Patching could be done in a matter of a few hours, and I'd bet a total surface recover of something like an aileron would only take a day or two at worst.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 10:12 am
Posts: 389
Location: Akron.OH
Well, not a warbird...but the process is the process. (Polyfiber in this case)

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

_________________
Life's a Pitts


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:26 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 pm
Posts: 1263
Location: Lacombe, Alberta, Canada
Enemy Ace wrote:
Kind of off topic but IMHO anyone using old style linen and dope is guilty of criminal negligence. The old linen and dope are incredibly flammable and that's very dangerous. the ceconite/ poly fiber type systems are so much better.
If the airplane is a flyer that goes double.


Not hardly. The flammability issue principally came from the use of entirely nitrate dopes throughout, but they are still used as the initial chemical coating on the synthetic fabrics because the less flammable butyrate dopes won't stick to the synthetic fabric but will stick to the nitrate dope initial coat. Whether one uses cotton, linen, or Dacron as the covering medium makes no significant difference to the flammability issue.

_________________
Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:20 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am
Posts: 2308
shrike wrote:
Doped cotton can have a life as short as six months, or several years depending on the color. Yellow is one the short lived ones, which is why the USAAF switched to silver on training aircraft. Modern synthetic coverings can have lives of decades.


I can never understand why museums with static aircraft would ever specify Irish linen instead of ceconite etc. I understand they want to "preserve the past" but when the aircraft is painted & parked for decades why the heck they would go with a system that won't last & anyone looking at the aircraft from 20ft away won't be any the wiser about what fabric was used... Wright Patterson being the culprit here....

_________________
Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:29 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 1185
Location: Chandler, AZ
ZRX61 wrote:
shrike wrote:
Doped cotton can have a life as short as six months, or several years depending on the color. Yellow is one the short lived ones, which is why the USAAF switched to silver on training aircraft. Modern synthetic coverings can have lives of decades.


I can never understand why museums with static aircraft would ever specify Irish linen instead of ceconite etc. I understand they want to "preserve the past" but when the aircraft is painted & parked for decades why the heck they would go with a system that won't last & anyone looking at the aircraft from 20ft away won't be any the wiser about what fabric was used... Wright Patterson being the culprit here....



It depends on the presentation. Ceconite tends to be very white, and synthetic covering materials are coloured to show coverage (PolyFiber is pink unless you special order clear). If you are going to do a final opaque finish, then I agree with you, if it's a Bleriot, or Wright or anything originally finished in clear doped linen, than thats' impossible to duplicate.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:49 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:36 am
Posts: 7961
Location: Mt. Vernon, WA.
Fabric covered control surfaces remained in production up to at least the end of the DC-7 and CONNIES. In a combat zone, fabric damage repairs could be made in hours in a forward combat area by a semi trained individual with a pair of scissors and a pot of dope and some fabric where a metal repair would require air driven tools and lots of support equipment plus the surface might need rebalancing (ask anyone who's painted a BONANZA).
UVA and UVB have always been the enemy of any covering besides metal. and are still a threat to CFRP airframes which is why you won't see any bare surfaces except metal leading edges on the 787.
Don't want to stir any bad memories, but did you ever know anyone who built a BEDE BD-4? (not the mini, the one that looked like the crate a CESSNA 177 was shipped in) The design was very clever as the wing panels were nested interlocking fiberglass panels that you just pulled out like a window drape then epoxied to the wings structures. Pretty clever but some who built them and left them tied down outside discovered that after a few seasons, you could rest your hand on the wing surface and with very little effort press out a section of very fragile and brittle fiberglass, and of course by then old Jim was no where to be found :axe: :roll:

_________________
Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:54 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:57 pm
Posts: 1263
Location: Lacombe, Alberta, Canada
If you go to http://www.ceconite.com there is an excellent series of articles written by Ron Alexander, who has likely forgotten more about working with fabric than many of us know. The processes for working with cotton, linen, Polyfiber, Stewart, etc, vary, but this will give you a decent introduction to fabric work. The biggest killer of any type of fabric is ultraviolet light, and the purpose of the silver coats of dope is to block that light from being able to get at the fabric. Any properly finished fabric covered airplane, regardless of it's final finish color, should be entirely silver underneath. I would hazard a guess that the reason why the USAAF and USN switched from yellow trainers to just silver trainers was more along the lines of the benefits of the higher visibility coloring didn't justify the extra time, effort and expense, especially during wartime.

_________________
Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:56 pm
Posts: 87
Awesome photos jaybird. Neat to see the process from start to finish.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:36 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 5:42 pm
Posts: 6884
Location: The Goldfields, Victoria, Australia
It's a good question! As has been touched on, just about anyone can repair a fabric ding; in fact bullet holes were easier to patch in fabric than metal, as demonstrated by Hurricane vs Spitfire repairs, the Hurricane having a fabric covered fuselage, and early examples fabric covered wings.

And as a friend of mind discovered, T-shirt material will serve when the right fabric is not available.

The use of modern synthetics for fabricing is more popular in the new world, while, IIRC, many restorers in the UK particularly go for the more authentic natural fabric, in restorations striving for 100% originality. What dopes they use, I don't know, but I'm amused by the suggestion that they must be negligent - the absence of such charges will, presumably, relate to modern dopes.
ZRX61 wrote:
I can never understand why museums with static aircraft would ever specify Irish linen instead of ceconite etc. I understand they want to "preserve the past" but when the aircraft is painted & parked for decades why the heck they would go with a system that won't last & anyone looking at the aircraft from 20ft away won't be any the wiser about what fabric was used... Wright Patterson being the culprit here....

Substituting a non-period material goes against one of the most basic museum tenets, and compromises the worth of the aircraft as an historical document for future researchers - such as 22nd century warbird operators...

Which is one reason why so many museums mandate minimising UV - and incidentally frustrating the photographers among us with the 'mood lighting'.

Regards,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sopwith and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group