Warbird Information Exchange

Thanks troops. A lot of good advice here. (Tangential stuff notwithstanding.) I think I'm going to take the picture and get a "feel" for what's happening before I approach the vets.

Mudge the appreciative

However...I don't know which of these to take...suggestions please.

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Land of the free because of the brave

Give it a try and see. If it were me, I dont think I would use the pic of the memorial. Maybe there is some other thing or Item that can tie them together that may be a bit more appropriate. I have attended a few reunions now and I have NEVER had anyone tell me that they would not sign my stuff, INFACT I have actually been copied in later reunions.

I first started out with using Transportation Corps flags for my first 2. At a 3rd, I brought a New Old Stock engine compartment panel for a 5 ton truck, THEY REALLY LIKED THAT!!!!
I have now started collecting signatures on a Tail Rotor Blade to a UH-1 for anyone who were pilots. I am starting another one for crewchiefs. My OH-6A skid that I have is headed to a reunion at Ft. Rucker in June 2012.

I think you get the idea. My only problem is that I need bigger walls!!!

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Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

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Trust me, I know what I'm doing.

Mudge, as we are losing somewhere (the last I heard) around 1500 vets a day, I wonder what their reaction would be, if you asked them if they had a Buddy that died there and ask them to sign or print that Soldiers name next to their own so they too will not be forgotten.

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Kind Regards,
Gary Lewis
J.A.F.O.

Now that some WIXers are done being indignant and threatening to leave, etc. we can cut the childish behavior and look at what was reported to have happened.
The German soldiers involved testified that some of the POW troops pulled concealed weapons (.45's?) or recovered their arms and that shots were fired at the guards. The guards returned fire at the obviously crowded troops who then understandably ran in all directions despite being ordered to stop. The situation had then changed in an eyeblink from an organized formation to chaos. were unarmed men shot and killed? unquestionably. Were they just machine gunned down with no provocation? That's where it starts to get murky, doesn't it? The guards were outnumbered, a few men to guard dozens. remember the tactical situation was still very fluid at that time, the American troops had not been captured long, the stress level for everyone had to be through the roof. Standartenfuhrer Peiper was not on the scene, being forward at the battle at the time I believe. It is obvious that many if not most of the American GI's had no idea what was going down until suddenly gunfire started.

War is a horrible and confusing thing where terrible things can happen very quickly. I think that this is something that maybe only combat veterans have truly experienced and can understand.

for example, (and warbird related!) the USAAF then bombed Malmedy on 23, 24, and 25 December killing over 200 civilians after the town was in U.S. hands!

I am afraid that too many get upset on this site when things are less than black and white and someone challenges their view after doing some basic research.

Thank you for sharing your travels with us Mr. Mudge. Your photos from the previous trip were excellent. I hope this upcoming trip is as enjoyable.
-Robert the long-winded

North American SNJ-4 N11SH S/N 84851

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All I did was press this red button here...

Funny how one question turns this into a dick swinging contest and threats of leaving.

Really? It is like a person saying they are going to quit a job, do you really think anyone around you really cares or will miss you? Ever hear of the old saying is that if you don't work with any a*holes at work, guess what, YOU'RE the a*hole.

Mudge, I would simply do this. Tell them that you are very honored to meet them, they are all hero's in your mind even though they might not accept that. And tell them that in your quest of preserving historical events and wanting to keep the spirit of those lost alive, you have created a tribute for your own personal collection. Ask them if they would sign the thing, so that YOU can honor them and their fellow soldiers they lost.

I don't feel like it would be a disgrace to ask, because you don't know if you don't ask. Also explain to them that this is your collection and your way of honoring them for what they went through and you promise that this is not something that would be place on ebay, but in passing you plan on donating it to a worthy muesum to preserve their honor so that others may learn from historical events.

Never be afraid to ask, the worst thing they could say is no, and then you kindly sake their hand, provide the utmost courtesy to them and respect them on the decision they have made. No harm no fowl.

You people speculate too much on here on what they would say, without having a first hand clue as to what they would say, and then piss and moan about how you are going to quit the board. Fine, quit, less of you whiners on here making mountains out of mole hills and more people to talk about aircraft related items.

Now Mudge, I respect you asking this, your heart is to honor and your head is fearful of upsetting others. I say ask, you are but one person trying to honor them, they will see that.

Great note Gary!

Respectfully, would you mind providing a source for that information? I would be interested to see where the two accounts (Allied and German) agree and how they differ on various important points.

Lynn

Lynn,
All I did was go to Wikipedia (english) and look up "Malmedy".
I am sure the references linked to that article will go into great detail.
V/r,
Robert




North American SNJ-4 N11SH S/N 84851

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All I did was press this red button here...

Interesting how the history of II SS Panzer Corps calls it 'one of the worst massacres of American troops in WW2." 84 American troops killed and 25 wounded with 56 survivors and no German casualties.

Sure sounds like a brief misunderstanding to me.

"The Bitter Woods" by John Eisenhower

"Those who had not escaped were rounded up and left under light guard while Peiper himself, with his advance formation continued southwest. Shortly thereafter as a second panzer column approached some of the prisoners were headed into a meadow by SS troopers and mowed down by machine gun and pistol fire. A few escaped by feigning death. Those who were detected as still alive were shot through the head with pistols."

Yep, sounds like it was all a big mistake.

I'm not going to type the survivors accounts in "The Longest Winter" by Alex Kershaw. Suffice to say they mention nothing of anyone shooting at the Germans first, and are very specific about who and what opened fire. The one guy describing how the GI laying on top of him got the bullet in the head while he lay still beneath him is all I need to know.

Terrible things happen in war, but this was above and beyond.

I suppose you'd tell us the murder of the Canadian POWs by Kurt Meyer's 12th SS in Normandy in 44 was also a misunderstanding. The old pistol shot to the back of the head can easily be misconstrued.

Of course the earlier murder of 97 of 99 British troops by SS Totenkopf during the Battle of France in 1940 was an accident too. Lining them up against the wall and machine gunning them being just a miscommunication.

Wikipedia is not exactly a reputable source, given that anyone can edit it... I could go there right now and type all manner of things, referencing nonexistent books and send well-meaning individuals on a wild goose chase trying to verify completely baseless information, or worse, someone might read it, see a "citiation" and assume that the statement is authoritative. Please understand I'm not personally calling you out here, as lots of people have referenced Wikipedia here and elsewhere, and it's certainly not all bad- but for such controversial subjects as war crimes, I would suggest something more concrete. From what you describe, it sounds as though perhaps that entry has been edited to undeservingly cast the German forces involved in a more positive light. I would be interested to see what German sources have to say about this event- witnesses and post-war historians alike.

Dan, that II. SS Panzer Corps history you mention... is the author German or no? And what's the date on that publication?

Lynn

I never said anything was a "misunderstanding". See how quickly things can get turned around?
I also said to look at the REFERENCES off of wikipedia, or you may do your own research.

Believe what you will. I am not trying to convince anyone or change their viewpoint. Because I honestly don't give 2 shakes what you believe. One of the first lessons I learned as an adult was that trying to change peoples ingrained beliefs is a waste of time.
We can toss unrelated incidents back and forth all day. We can question each other's sources all day. I have airplanes to work on and pretty girls to chase so you will need to find someone else to play this game with.
How is it that I seem to end up playing Devil's Advocate on this forum so much anyway?
A few years ago there was a nasty little incident in Iraq where Blackwater contractors opened fire in a crowded square. Were they returning fire or was it murder?? I can assure you that Al- Jazerra and most of the press called it Murder, the Iraqi government called it murder. The guys I work with in SWA and I say well done. They survived and made it home to their families.

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All I did was press this red button here...

Having been an adult quite some time, I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Having been a history fanatic for the better part of 45 years, including a time where the "SS" was on the top of the research list, this has nothing to do with ingrained beliefs, but everything to do with pulling together all the different accounts and making my own decision. And when someone like yourself presents the classic 'SS apologist, they were just ordinary soldiers, bad things happen in war' bit, I'm going to call you out on it. There are enough detailed accounts of the incident to 'shoot down' any idea that somehow the US POWs fired first at the SS troopers, or fired at all. Considering it was the crews of 2 Panzer IVs along with other SS troops guarding the POWs, it's a bit hard to believe the POWs thought they could take out the tanks with hidden pistols. That a US Officer ordered the men to 'stand fast' even after the shooting started, in hopes of avoiding more killing, would seem a good indicator that this wasn't some sort of back and forth gun fight.

Ironically there was a time I might have agreed with you, when I was a teenager and the fascination with the German military and the Waffen SS had a real hold on my interest. They had cool looking 'stuff'. But the longer I researched the harder it became to see them beyond what they were. Possibly at some point if you get beyond Wiki and the internet and actually do some research of your own, you might learn something yourself.

Michael Reynolds is the author. He's done many books on the Waffen SS, and a biography of Peiper as well

The Devil's Adjutant: Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader by Michael Frank Reynolds (Jul 21, 1995)

Sons of the Reich: The History of II SS Panzer Corps by Michael Frank Reynolds (Jun 2002)

Men of Steel: I SS Panzer Corps: The Ardennes and Eastern Front, 1944-45 by Michael Frank Reynolds (Jul 22, 1999)

Steel Inferno: I SS Panzer Corps In Normandy by Michael Reynolds (Jul 21, 1997)

I have the German written history of the 12th SS. Two volumes by Hubert Meyer. Not a mention of the seperate massacres of 35 and then 27 Canadian prisoners, but lots of talk about the treatment of SS POWs by the Allies. Interestingly enough this is possible because the SS men, who thought they were going to be shot, were not, and lived to tell about their POW experiences.

"Soldiers of Destruction -The SS Death's Head Division 1933-45" by Charles Snyder well documents the killing of the British POWs in 1940.