B-17 crash (1943)

[Bcook]

I am looking for information on a B-17 crash on December 12, 1943. My dad flew on B-17's back then. He has passed on several years ago. He loved flying but hated to see these warbirds continue to fly. After the mass scrappings post wwii era there were not many left. Those still flying dwindled down to smaller numbers. The year is 2011 and yet we still hear of them crashing. As much as my dad liked flying them and how much I enjoyed hearing his stories we both felt these historical items should not be at risk from being destroyed. My first post here after a year of visiting. Seem's there are some subjects unwelcomed here from observing. Very sad indeed that so many people are leaving wix. But, ahhhh I said my peice about the subject on flying warbirds, right or wrong.

[bipe215]

Was the crash stateside or overseas? Any info about your Dad's group or squadron would help.

Steve

[JohnB]

I think your second question is whether warbirds should be allowed to fly.

My opinion...of course they should.
Since you mention B-17s...
This summer's crash was a huge loss, but the important thing to remember is that no one was seriously injured. The last B-17 loss was in 1989...so that's 22 years between crashes.

Ther are more flying B-17s now than there has been in a long time and another 3 (or more) are being restored to fly.
Back in the 70s when they were still on fire duty and hauling stuff in South America, a B-17 would be lost every year or two.
We've turned a corner....the planes are not at risk of being scrapped or neglected.
If you want to worry aboutthe fate of surviving B-17s, then you should work to preserve the ones still kept outside, they're usually found in NMUSAF-authorized collections. Some are in good shape, others are basically empty shells still sitting outside after 65 years.

Likewise, in 1969 you could count the airworthy Spitfires and Hurricanes on both hands...that's no longer the case.
The value and appreciation (and I don't mean financial appreciation) of these machines is huge. People take good care of them.

[Zachary]

Mods, please add the historic date to the thread title. I nearly had a heart attack when I read "B-17 crash" just now.

[tex-fan]

Mods, please add the historic date to the thread title. I nearly had a heart attack when I read "B-17 crash" just now.

my heart nearly stopped too.

[Mike]

Ther are more flying B-17s now than there has been in a long time

Not necessarily so. We are losing them (to groundings as well as accidents) at a higher rate than new ones are being restored.

Pond's, Evergreen's, Pink Lady and the MoF/Richardson B-17F are all examples of active flyers now grounded. How long before Fuddy Duddy goes the same way? And then there are the losses of the IGN example in 1989 and Liberty Belle this year.

How many have been retored to fly in the same period? Most airworthy ones are ex-firebombers or survey aircraft that have been tidied up a bit, and have continued flying, rather then complete restorations. The numbers are steadily dwindling, in spite of the good efforts of the restorers.

[WIXMOD-Alpha]

Mods, please add the historic date to the thread title. I nearly had a heart attack when I read "B-17 crash" just now.

I may be a mod, but I wasn't sure I wanted to open the thread, either!

Done.

[TonyM]

I am looking for information on a B-17 crash on December 12, 1943. My dad flew on B-17's back then. He has passed on several years ago. He loved flying but hated to see these warbirds continue to fly. After the mass scrappings post wwii era there were not many left. Those still flying dwindled down to smaller numbers. The year is 2011 and yet we still hear of them crashing. As much as my dad liked flying them and how much I enjoyed hearing his stories we both felt these historical items should not be at risk from being destroyed. My first post here after a year of visiting. Seem's there are some subjects unwelcomed here from observing. Very sad indeed that so many people are leaving wix. But, ahhhh I said my peice about the subject on flying warbirds, right or wrong.

Where did the accident occur? Was it a fatal accident?

I have info on a B-17 crash at Rosebud, South Dakota, on 13 Dec 1943.

Summaries for all fatal B-17 accidents in the Continental United States during WWII can be found in:
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945
Good Luck

TonyM

[Chuck Giese]

Since you mention B-17s...
This summer's crash was a huge loss, but the important thing to remember is that no one was seriously injured. The last B-17 loss was in 1989...so that's 22 years between crashes.

Ummm... Minor correction. While it was indeed a huge loss this summer, it wasn't a B-17 crash. It was one of the better landings that I've been aboard for...

Last edited by Chuck Giese on Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

[gary1954]

Since you mention B-17s...
This summer's crash was a huge loss, but the important thing to remember is that no one was seriously injured. The last B-17 loss was in 1989...so that's 22 years between crashes.

Ummm... Minor correction. While it was indeed a hugh loss this summer, it wasn't a B-17 crash. It was one of the better landings that I've been aboard for...

Thanks Chuck, I was gonna say the same thing...except for this part "It was one of the better landings that I've been aboard for..." as I wasn't a stowaway as I should have been

[JohnB]

Ther are more flying B-17s now than there has been in a long time

Not necessarily so. We are losing them (to groundings as well as accidents) at a higher rate than new ones are being restored.
Pond's, Evergreen's, Pink Lady and the MoF/Richardson B-17F are all examples of active flyers now grounded. How long before Fuddy Duddy goes the same way? And then there are the losses of the IGN example in 1989 and Liberty Belle this year.

I don't worry about groundings as much. The planes you mentioned are well taken care of, kept indoors and some will live to fly another day.
The French group says Pink Lady will probably fly agin...though it could be after we're gone. And unless they brick it in, I think the Boeing Bee at Seattle, may occasionally fly long into the future. Boeing and the people of Seattle will always want to see a B-17 fly. BTW: they do fly their DC-2, a much rarer bird than the Flying Fortress.
I don't judge flying aircraft too stricly on their "originality". We've all had discuissions aboutv "Data Plate" restiorations and some B-17s are what are called "bitsas" in the vintage car world, or largly re-creations. That's okay by me. Compared to some of the fiction of warbird fighters out there..."This flying Spitfire is the same aircraft that was buried on a beach for 40 years". Sure. By their very nature, stock and original 60 year aircraft don't fly much.
I'm hapy to leave original bits for a museum bird. With avionics and later dash engines for safety, I'm nott too picky about fliers.
If you want to see them fly, environmental laws and the lack of AVGAS are real concerns.

[JohnB]

[quote="Chuck Giese"/] Minor correction. While it was indeed a hugh loss this summer, it wasn't a B-17 crash. It was one of the better landings that I've been aboard for...[/quote]


To me any aircraft loss while moving is basically a crash, though as you note, this loss did not involve a loss of control. I'm not criticising the aircrew, and
you can quibble all you want, but an off-airport forced landing and burn out is pretty darn close to a crash IMHO.
BTW: was it wheels up? If so, that just strenthens my position.
Also, I don't think the FAA, NTSB and the insurance company would differentiate between the "events".
End results are the same. One less aircraft.

[TonyM]

I am looking for information on a B-17 crash on December 12, 1943. My dad flew on B-17's back then. He has passed on several years ago. He loved flying but hated to see these warbirds continue to fly. After the mass scrappings post wwii era there were not many left. Those still flying dwindled down to smaller numbers. The year is 2011 and yet we still hear of them crashing. As much as my dad liked flying them and how much I enjoyed hearing his stories we both felt these historical items should not be at risk from being destroyed. My first post here after a year of visiting. Seem's there are some subjects unwelcomed here from observing. Very sad indeed that so many people are leaving wix. But, ahhhh I said my peice about the subject on flying warbirds, right or wrong.

Where did the accident occur? Was it a fatal accident?

I have info on a B-17 crash at Rosebud, South Dakota, on 13 Dec 1943.

Summaries for all fatal B-17 accidents in the Continental United States during WWII can be found in:
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945
Good Luck

TonyM

Two more, both non-fatal:

12 Dec 1943 B-17F Lockborne Army Air Base, Ohio
12 Dec 1943 B-17F Lowry Army Air Field, Colorado


TM

[51fixer]

[quote="Chuck Giese"/] Minor correction. While it was indeed a hugh loss this summer, it wasn't a B-17 crash. It was one of the better landings that I've been aboard for...[/quote]


To me any aircraft loss while moving is basically a crash, though as you note, this loss did not involve a loss of control. I'm not criticising the aircrew, and
you can quibble all you want, but an off-airport forced landing and burn out is pretty darn close to a crash IMHO.
BTW: was it wheels up? If so, that just strenthens my position.
Also, I don't think the FAA, NTSB and the insurance company would differentiate between the "events".
End results are the same. One less aircraft.[/quote]

Lets put a little more logic and less emotion into this.
The gear was down.
It was an off airport landing due to an emergency.
The FAA/ NTSB don't use the word crash. You have accidents and incidents. The newspaper and TV report crashes, car, truck, tricycle, pogo stick. If it bleeds it leads.
Lets use aviation language. As stated above these events are not recorded as events or crashes with the FAA, NTSB or the Insurance Co.
In this case the Insurance company is over joyed I bet. No death claims, little in the way of lawyering up cause we had survivors rather than the next of kin involved.

[bipe215]

Aviation archeaology lists two in England on the 12th.
42-37839, 95th BG, Powers crew, belly landing

42-31168, 447th BG, Easterline crew, landing accident

Steve