I need some advice

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1131

Enemy Ace wrote:

"Malmedy was the mass murder of POWs by the SS during the Battle of the Bulge?"
According to the folks that won the war. there are 2 sides to every story, though.

Oh boy, just when I was about to write WIX off as totally useless, something like this comes up. I'll hang around long enough for the explanation of how this was not the mass murder of prisoners, regardless of who the victor was. I've just got to hear how old Joachim Pieper was really a good guy but misunderstood.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:32 pm

Brad, you mean you never read a german history book?

Locobuster · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:55 am

Enemy Ace wrote:

"Malmedy was the mass murder of POWs by the SS during the Battle of the Bulge?"
According to the folks that won the war. there are 2 sides to every story, though.

Wow, just Wow. :shock:

I'm with Brad, can't wait to see some sort of forthcoming explanation on this statement...

Syd

CDF · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:53 am

PbyCat-Guy wrote:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Malmedy was the mass murder of POWs by the SS during the Battle of the Bulge?

Yes, accounts vary as to how many were taken prisoner and how many were actually killed during the massacre (as opposed to the intial fire fight). The memorial at Baugnez has 86 names on it, but the post-war trial at Dachau only listed 72 deaths in the indictment.

Good site here about the Dachau trials
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscr ... index.html

JDK · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:37 am

Chris,
German history books have a tougher job than you realise. Unlike the history books of the US, Britain or Australia, they are forced to address some of the darker aspects of their nation's history head on. Ask most Germans about history and you'd get a better answer as to historical responsibility than most of the people of our countries, due to the German requirement to face these facts.

Enemy Ace wrote:

"Malmedy was the mass murder of POWs by the SS during the Battle of the Bulge?"
According to the folks that won the war. there are 2 sides to every story, though.

Only because of your comment, I'd be interested to see a evidence based credible argument for 'another side' to one of the SS's many atrocities - or, failing that, your apology for this (IMHO inappropriate) remark.

As far as I'm aware, aside from neo-Nazi groups and unfrocked 'historians' like David Irving, no one is prepared to try and defend or justify the actions of the SS. Please note that post-war political arguments about whether convicted Nazi war criminals got off 'more lightly' than the Japanese or whether there were allied atrocities, or issues regarding the US trial, however justified, does not mitigate or excuse the actions of the SS on this or other occasions.

Regards,

tex-fan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:45 am

there were 12 sentenced to death at the Nuremberg Trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials
there were 43 sentenced to death at the Malmedy massacre trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre_trial
history is pretty clear on this one.

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:51 am

peiper was a nice guy?? glad to hear that....... i feel much better now, he's excused from any atrocities & war crimes. & that's how you spell his name. mudge i'm sorry for the stirring of a beehive this is going to cause. i can hear the click of the lock now!!! & brad do us all a favor & don't hang around.

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1131

tom d. friedman wrote:

peiper was a nice guy?? glad to hear that....... i feel much better now, he's excused from any atrocities & war crimes. & that's how you spell his name. mudge i'm sorry for the stirring of a beehive this is going to cause. i can hear the click of the lock now!!! & brad do us all a favor & don't hang around.

I won't be hanging around Tom. I'm pretty much gone after I send this. However, you might want to go back and re read what I wrote. I don't use those stupid little smiley things but i figured even the dumbest person could see the dripping sarcasm in my post. Its pretty obvious to everyone else what I was saying. I'm not sure how you missed it.

Speedy · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:46 am

I guess what I find sad about this is the taking sides and finger pointing that have resulted from Mudge's initial question of respect.

Here's the bottom line. In war time people do bad things. As horrific as the accounts of Peiper and Malmedy are, let's not forget that in the anger that followed, Allied troops responded by shooting prisoners on sight instead of taking them captive. What's worse? Why is one group held accountable and the other not, when both are just as tragic? And I don't care what the underlying intention of each was...all of it was tragic. How did the Soviets 'repay' the Germans for the attrocities on the Eastern Front? Was it 'justified'? To me it was just as horrific as what caused it in the first place...it was revenge.

Even Enemy Ace's comment has truth to it. The winner determines how history remembers it. But I think if you really look you'll find that EVERY human conflict has incidents of 'people' (I don't care whether you're the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys'...because I don't think anyone ever thinks of THEIR side as the 'bad guys' when it's happening) who for whatever reason kill 'innocent' people. It's not just the Germans or Japanese or Russians who did the 'bad stuff' in WWII. Americans, Brits, French, EVERYONE involved, at one time or another, did horrible, tragic things to other human beings.

Not making excuses for it, nor am I taking sides. Just pointing out the tragedy of it all.

Mudge, I think you showed a lot of class by 'asking'. My personal opinion kind of reflects what others have said...perhaps the autographs might be a bit much up front...however don't be shy about thanking them, talking to them about it, and letting them share their history. And maybe depending on how that goes, test the waters.

kalamazookid · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:56 am

Quote:

Here's the bottom line. In war time people do bad things. As horrific as the accounts of Peiper and Malmedy are, let's not forget that in the anger that followed, Allied troops responded by shooting prisoners on sight instead of taking them captive. What's worse? Why is one group held accountable and the other not, when both are just as tragic? And I don't care what the underlying intention of each was...all of it was tragic. How did the Soviets 'repay' the Germans for the attrocities on the Eastern Front? Was it 'justified'? To me it was just as horrific as what caused it in the first place...it was revenge.

I could not agree more.

CDF · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:32 pm

kalamazookid wrote:

Quote:

Here's the bottom line. In war time people do bad things. As horrific as the accounts of Peiper and Malmedy are, let's not forget that in the anger that followed, Allied troops responded by shooting prisoners on sight instead of taking them captive. What's worse? Why is one group held accountable and the other not, when both are just as tragic? And I don't care what the underlying intention of each was...all of it was tragic. How did the Soviets 'repay' the Germans for the attrocities on the Eastern Front? Was it 'justified'? To me it was just as horrific as what caused it in the first place...it was revenge.

I could not agree more.

Agreed. More eloquent than I could attempt, well stated mate

ZeamerB17 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:08 pm

mustangdriver wrote:

Brad, you mean you never read a german history book?

Are those on par with Japanese history books? :roll:

Anyway, Mudge - I'd go, take my photo along and see what the gentlemen are doing. If they are signing stuff for others and seem to be ok with it, I'd go for it. Otherwise, probably not ... a bit of a delicate call.

shrike · **Posted:** Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:26 am

Back to the original question.

Are the gentlemen in question being 'billed' as Malmedy survivors, or are they just guys who survived Malmedy and happened to get together at this show?

If the former, then they are the ones that, implicitly or explicitly, opened the floor to the topic. In that case it should be perfectly acceptable to approach them for autographs, and the fact that you took the picture should provide a better connection to the event than a generic 3x5 autograph card.

If the latter case, then more discretion may be in order.

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:40 am

Good points, Speedy, and I quite agree. However there is a rider to all that, in that issues, tragedy and culpability by and to others doesn't excuse individual action - in the same manner that pointing out that everyone else does it when you get busted for breaking the speed limit doesn't cut any ice with the law.

In this case, the appalling and sad actions which followed, and the arguments about how many prisoners were murdered does not dispute that there was a massacre and that members of the SS did commit a war crime.

Trying to bring such events it under the heading of 'victors write the history', however much that is true in general, is the thin end of the wedge of attempting to justify or excuse the actions of the SS or the Nazi regime, generally regarded as inexcusable.

ZeamerB17 - as a serious answer, no. FWIW, Italian history books fudge the issues of the Fascist era more than the German ones.

Also I think Shrike's answered the original question, IMHO!

Regards,

CDF · **Posted:** Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:36 am

shrike wrote:

Are the gentlemen in question being 'billed' as Malmedy survivors, or are they just guys who survived Malmedy and happened to get together at this show?.

Valid point, by my reading those that did survive should be veterans of the following:

B Company, 285th Field Observation Battalion
Headquarters Battery, 285th Field Artillery Battalion
32nd Armored Regiment
200th Field Artillery Battalion
546th Ambulance Battalion
575th Ambulance Company
86th Engineer Battalion

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