New Fw(W) 190 takes to the sky for the first time

[marine air]

It counts. At least they started with an original, and no doubt used original material and parts,when able. Wonder how many original parts are in the cockpit ?

[DaveM2]

It counts. At least they started with an original, and no doubt used original material and parts,when able. Wonder how many original parts are in the cockpit ?

They didn't start with an original at all, they had some parts (fittings) from a crashed wreck which was dug out of the ground in France. All major assemblies are Flug Werk.
That doesn't mean it isn't a great looking aircraft and a wonderful achievment by Don and his team.

[Canso42]

I'm also going to agree with JimH and kalamazookid. If it's an ac that there just arent' many examples extant, copies will have to do. GT40s and Shelby Cobras were mentioned earlier. I used to build Shelby Cobra kit cars in a friend's shop. He said that they "interpreted" the original design. Again when there are only a handful of originals in the world with lots of commas in the price tag, us average guys will make do with replicas.
I may have missed it skimming through this thread, but what engine powers the Flug Werke?

[redvanner]

....... I may have missed it skimming through this thread, but what engine powers the Flug Werke?

@Canso42: Flugwerk used a Chinese Dongan HS (HuoSai) 8, a license product of the Russian Shvetsov ASh 82 T, produced with Russian machinery after production ceased in Russia. The ASh 82 T was developed from the Shvetsov M-62, itself a development from M-25 a licensed version of the Wright R-1820 Cyclone.

Michael

[Matthias Dorst]

Pretty interesting discussion .... my 2 cents

What makes an original fighter-AC ?
I dont believe (better I dont know) wether the FHC-Fw190 is original The fighter was buried many many years. I dont believe, that there were many usable and relieable parts at this buried fighterplane. Many parts are exchanged, lot of new parts, reconstructed parts and so on. Okay the FHC has the "Kommandogeraet" and the BMW801 engine and its an original airframe but is it really originale, or is it a so called 98% repair?

Show me some fighterplanes with the original (!!) fighter-engine ! Most of the preserved and flying birds are powered by more relieable transporter- or bomber-engines. The more powerful fighter engines are too sophisticated, too thursty and too expensive to maintain. No one needs today combatpower. So the engines are replaced by more relieable transporter-engines. A lot of Corsairs are flying around with DC-6 engines, Mustangs/Spitfires with Lancaster-engines. HURRAY they are not original! Really ? Modern avionics, optimized dashboards .... original ?

What about those fantastic Yak-3 and Yak-9, produced in the nintees? A Yak with an Allison-engine? Replica or original ? The "new" Yaks were produced by Yakovlev (!), so they are original. Yakovlev used a huge amount of old wartime material lying around in old hangars/stores and no one of those first owners in the nintees knew about that. So one fuselage-centersection of those Yaks in EDTG is dated with 1944....... No one would fly with a rare Mikulin engine, not reliable enough, very very rare and very expensive. No one could maintain that engine. Allison is having the same size, same power and is relieable. Take a look at the newly rerstored IL-2 .... Allison powered.

The goal is to get a relieable, flyable and safe warbird. The others are standing in Museums as Hendon (Black Six) or the Smithonian.

All those flying German Bf109G (Messerschmitt Stiftung) as the "Red7" are Spanish girls with a German heart, but no one would dare to shout "Replica, look at that replica"..... but it is (!) a replica, not far away from the Flugwerk effort. Using a Spanish airframe out of the fiftees and mount a wartime DB605 is not (!) a restauration project, its a "fake". But there is no original German Gustav-airframe flying un the world, but we want to see a Messerschmitt in the air. Hahnweide 2011 ... Stormbird Me262 and "Red7" made their visit. It was so beautiful, stunning and breathtaking. Two of the most impressive German fighters in the air. Believe me, if someone in this second took the speakers-microphone and would have said "look at those wunderful replicas", they crowd would have killed him

I am with you JDK, try to sell such a ship and you will get the answer wether 98%-repair and original airframe with mostly matching numbers, like Spitfire MkVIIIc D-FEUR or P-51D D-FPSI.

The Flugwerk Fw190 story is quite different. They were constructed by FlugWerk using original plans. So its a fullscale-replica, a kit plane. It was never the businesscase of Flugwerk to present a historical correct fighter. The task was to bring a Fw190 in the air, to sell an amount of kits to the customers. The costumers had to built up the ship with own ideas and solutions. The Yagen-190 is very very different to the original Flugwerk-kitplane. Lot of new solutions, many original wartime Fw190 parts (for ex. complete tailwheel/gear, electric flapactuators) and a huge amount of optimizations made that Flugwerk-Kit to a Focke Wulf Fw190 A8/M and with this "name" the ship is registered. Not as Flugwerk. The ship was named Focke Wulf cause of the many wartime-parts buried in the airframe. The "M" stands for MeierMotors cause of the optimizations and new ideas.
All Flugwerk-Kits were delivered with the ASH82T engine. The "T" stands for transporter. The 82T was used in the Iljushin Il-14 and is a very relieable and powerful engine. But, the 82T has no gear to drive a coolant-fan as the BMW did. So the socalled "Panzerring" is not used in the cowling, so you have to go new ways to get the goal. The movable Panzerring solution is pretty tricky, and a big amount of Fw190 caught fire in WW2 cause temperaturefailure. The fan-solution did not work (you really need a gear). So the costumers had to go their own ways, Yagen did it with wing-radiators and a 126ltr oiltank, constructed by MeierMotors. The french ship F-AZZJ used the ring-radiator solution but had always some minor temperature-problems.

To make a long story short, its not so easy to decide wether a plane is really an original or not. The money will answer the question when you want to sell it. An easy answer is to give at those Flugwerk Fw190. These planes are kitplanes, replicas and lookalikes.

But if you see such a replica or lookalike hammering over the airfield low and fast, the big grin in your face is original and will last some days!

Regards from Germany
Matthias Dorst

[Mike Halbrook]

Mathias has some interesting points about engines. Locally, I get to occasionally bash on a fighter that has a Merlin 724 "transport" engine. TBO is (nominally) 2000hrs. There is also a pickled Packard V-1650-3, this would be the "correct" engine with a TBO of (nominally) 250hrs. These engines were manufactured about twenty years apart and represent twenty years more experience building and servicing Merlins. Any of these planes that flew much in military service had frequent engine changes, mods, and upgrades. Any aircraft that still flies will represent compromises to insure safety and allow continued operation.
The Shuttleworth trust has some very original pre-WWI aircraft, they "fly" but often only in ground effect in straight lines on a calm day.

Paint, the Battle of Britain Flight aircraft are re-painted to represent different squadrons at each major overhaul, you can always change your mind on a paint job.

I'm still not always in tune with "modern" attitudes towards these planes. Much of the time I've been interested in them I was asked "why do you care about that junk?" We are in a much better place now.

[Iclo]

The ex-Jaquard's FW190 was reported to have an original tail landing gear.
but I never heard that the owner or any people related to the plane was thinking the plane is a restoration.

From what I red: the Flug Werkt is not a complete plane "ready to be assembled' but left lot of engineering work to the customer.

to the owner and crew of this FW190

[Mike]

Pretty interesting discussion .... my 2 cents

What makes an original fighter-AC ?
I dont believe (better I dont know) wether the FHC-Fw190 is original The fighter was buried many many years. I dont believe, that there were many usable and relieable parts at this buried fighterplane. Many parts are exchanged, lot of new parts, reconstructed parts and so on. Okay the FHC has the "Kommandogeraet" and the BMW801 engine and its an original airframe but is it really originale, or is it a so called 98% repair?

Matthias,

I think you are doing a huge disservice to all involved in the restoration of the FHC Fw190.

It was certainly not 'buried many many years', and is definitely not a '98% repair'

Most of the skins (apart from the wing leading edges) and internal structure were re-used in the restoration, and this involved an enormous amount of work, even down to removing some replacement skins fitted during the early part of the restoration for an earlier owner, and re-fitting the original skins. A vast amount of work went into sourcing original Fw190 parts, and having parts made EXACTLY to the specification of the wartime originals. I am in awe of the work carried out on this airframe, and it was a real privilege to see it fly a few weeks back. In short, it is about as far away in concept from most of the Flug Werk replicas, with modern engines and systems, than you can possibly get.

However, they serve different purposes. This year for example, the Frasca R-2800 engined Flug Werk has appeared at Chino, Oshkosh, Reno (as a racer) and an event in Northern California last weekend. Several thousand miles and many hours of flight time logged. The FHC Fw flew once in public, for about 15 minutes, and I doubt it will ever appear at any events away from its home base at Paine Field. Both are totally different concepts for different purposes, which is fine.

Where I do become uncomfortable is when I see what is obviously a modern Flug Werk being registered as an original Focke Wulf.

[Matthias Dorst]

Pretty interesting discussion .... my 2 cents

What makes an original fighter-AC ?
I dont believe (better I dont know) wether the FHC-Fw190 is original The fighter was buried many many years. I dont believe, that there were many usable and relieable parts at this buried fighterplane. Many parts are exchanged, lot of new parts, reconstructed parts and so on. Okay the FHC has the "Kommandogeraet" and the BMW801 engine and its an original airframe but is it really originale, or is it a so called 98% repair?

Matthias,

I think you are doing a huge disservice to all involved in the restoration of the FHC Fw190.

It was certainly not 'buried many many years', and is definitely not a '98% repair'

*hmmmm the fighter forced-landed after engine failure on July 19, 1943 near Leningrad, being recovered in 1990. That means the fighter was buried in a forest for about 47 years. In my eyes 47 years is a pretty long time. And when you say its not a 98% repair, okay, confirm, no problem.

Most of the skins (apart from the wing leading edges) and internal structure were re-used in the restoration, and this involved an enormous amount of work, even down to removing some replacement skins fitted during the early part of the restoration for an earlier owner, and re-fitting the original skins.

That sounds incredible to me after lying for 47 years in a hot/rainy/cold russian forest. As I said it "sounds" incredible. I havent seen the wreckage before restauration. I´ve seen other wrecks lying around for about 20-30 years, and they were not really in a good shape. A good basis indeed, but not many parts in useable condition.

A vast amount of work went into sourcing original Fw190 parts, and having parts made EXACTLY to the specification of the wartime originals. I am in awe of the work carried out on this airframe, and it was a real privilege to see it fly a few weeks back.

You´re a lucky man ! I wished I could see this piece of art live in the air ! Must be an incredible moment to see and hear this beauty !

In short, it is about as far away in concept from most of the Flug Werk replicas, with modern engines and systems, than you can possibly get.

right you are !

However, they serve different purposes. This year for example, the Frasca R-2800 engined Flug Werk has appeared at Chino, Oshkosh, Reno (as a racer) and an event in Northern California last weekend. Several thousand miles and many hours of flight time logged. The FHC Fw flew once in public, for about 15 minutes, and I doubt it will ever appear at any events away from its home base at Paine Field. Both are totally different concepts for different purposes, which is fine.

again , agreed

Where I do become uncomfortable is when I see what is obviously a modern Flug Werk being registered as an original Focke Wulf.

Not agree The FHC 190 is an A-5 , for ex. the Yagen 190 is a Fw190 A-8/M. Both planes have the same parents, Yagens ship was born a bit later. The other is the Flugwerk Frasca. You see the difference ?

English is not my native language, so let me explain my ideas again

The FHC 190 is comparable to nothing on earth. Its the only original, flyable Focke Wulf Fw190. There is no doubt about it. The FHC 190 was restored with a huge amount of professionalism and I think the best of the best were engaged in that project. Again, no doubt, this ship is a piece of history and art.

In my eyes it doesnt matter if there are 80% original parts or 20%. To see those birds airborne, that does matter. I have absolute no problem with 98%-repairs and I have also no problems with an Allison-powered Yak-3 or Il-2 and I love those spanish Buchons with German hearts.

Again, the Flugwerk Fw190 is a kitplane, not comparable to the FHC 190. But its a good copy of that famous fighter and I suppose factor 10 cheaper than the FHC fighter So, you cannot compare the two projects.

Cheers Matthias

[Merlin540]

I see this all the time in the automotive 'restoration' business. Any newly-made part is a REPLICA of the original part. And any such vehicles that use these restoration parts are 'original style'-but NOT an 'original'. I don't care if it's exact-it's a REPLICA part. I know many guys who spend fantastic $$$ and effort to create and then punch the right numbers into loads of brand new parts. So the vehement, partisan arguments with this stuff are all semantical. Truth be told, the only so-called 'ORIGINAL' is an unrestored 'survivor'.

In my own opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with replacement or replica parts, either. They are often way BETTER than an original component. So if you want a reliable, well-functioning piece of machinery, by all means use the technological advancements. Just call it what it is.

[Mike]

Where I do become uncomfortable is when I see what is obviously a modern Flug Werk being registered as an original Focke Wulf.

Not agree The FHC 190 is an A-5 , for ex. the Yagen 190 is a Fw190 A-8/M. Both planes have the same parents, Yagens ship was born a bit later. The other is the Flugwerk Frasca. You see the difference ?

Sorry Matthias, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

The Yagen example is a Flug Werk, not a Focke Wulf. As is the Frasca one, and the one at the beginning of this thread. They are what they are, and are very impressive machines to see in the air. Just don't try and claim that they are original WWII German fighters, because they aren't. However, the FHC one is as close to an original Luftwaffe Fw190 as it is possible to get, a different thing entirely to the Flug Werk replicas/lookalikes/whatevers.

[DaveM2]

Matthias

Did you not get Classic Wings #79 & #80 ? I think that explains the FHC aircraft very well and the extraordinary lengths that were gone to, to keep it '1943 original'.

regards
Dave