From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?

[Pathfinder]

Patrick's excellent find in the unit histories points us to the 904th Air Base Security Bn...but AAF reporting practically mandated that anything or anyone other than the air crew was superfluous information, so we might expect a broad brush treatment of the "cargo" or passengers.

We seem to have a consistent error relating to the date of loss, so why not the specific unit of the casualties.

These are members of the 812 ENGR BN AVN buried overseas. SR is the Sicily-Rome Cemetery at Nettuno. FL is Florence. A family could request burial at any overseas cemetery.

All of these soldiers are listed as "negro" in the NARA Enlistment database.
All deceased 30/31 July 1944. (with one exception).
All are listed DNB--Died Non Battle.

COPELAND LOUIS JR PVT 34757539 AL 30-Jul-44 E 9 47 SR
GREEN FRANK B PFC 36871031 MI 31-Jul-44 A 10 28 SR
LESTER JOSEPH W TEC5 12038993 NY 30-Jul-44 D 3 39 FL
SANTOS JOHN G PVT 31202367 MA 2-Nov-44 J 6 66 SR
TATE JOHN H JR CPL 35678677 OH 30-Jul-44 F 14 44 SR
VAIDEN EUGENE S CPL 35200967 WV 30-Jul-44 H 2 30 SR

[patelie]

We seem to have a consistent error relating to the date of loss

Hello Dave
Why are you saying that? You don't think that the crash occured on 31st July 1944?

...but AAF reporting practically mandated that anything or anyone other than the air crew was superfluous information

After have seen the number of microfilms and reports I have seen, I can tell you that it's miraculous that the passengers unit for a ferry flight is listed in the squadron diary!

[Pathfinder]

"... a consistent error relating to the date of loss."---" You don't think that the crash occured on 31st July 1944?"

Patrick--

You know how I work----I don't think anything at the moment.

I am simply pointing out that between the civilians, the Squadron, and possible burials there is a specific date problem.

Someone has made an error--or (more likely) there is a factor in the reporting that we have yet to identify that is creating what appears to be an error.

The Group and Squadron (and the civilians) have also introduced a question as to the number of persons deceased in the incident not only in the crash but in the follow up.

We have to take note of these inconsistencies and address each one of them in order to have a complete forensic* understanding of the case. Otherwise we wind up believing whatever we want and most likely arriving at a false conclusion.

I am always amazed at what is included--and not included--in MACRs and military diary/histories. (Just as with my Pathfinder histories--there are whole pages on the inter-Squadron basketball season of 1944, and hardly a mention of the little milk run they took on June 5-6). How many times have we seen that one missed key-stroke on a Squadron clerk's typewriter changing the tail number of a plane? Change the tail number by mistake and you change the identity of the plane--even what unit it was with (historically) and what theater it flew in! I have one MACR with Lat/Long coordinates for a take-off. It is an undisputed fact that the plane took off from England--but when you put the coordinate written by the clerk onto a map it tells you that the plane took off from Kazakhstan. One digit--or lack there of--changes everything. That's forensics.

Like you say, I think it is highly unusual that the diarists would have mentioned the unit--and their race--in the official diary. But they DID and it is an incredible clue--but we should not be limited to looking only for burials of that unit...

We do not find ANY 904 personnel buried overseas. So either they were ALL repatriated after the war---or NONE were killed in the incident.

If none were killed in the incident--and the crew survived--then the casualties were from another (negro) unit. Without forcing answers, the list I made "fits" the scenario---but is yet to be proven.

What we are doing here is assembling all of the evidence and applying proofs. Part of that is identifying errors--or inconsistencies.

BTW WIXers--Patrick and I are great friends and we have been doing this stuff together for years--we constantly challenge and question each other. So don't expect this to turn into a flame war....not gonna happen! I am constantly in awe of the textual material that Patrick has acquired (at his own expense) and cataloged to create his awesome D-Day website.

* Contrary to what we see on TV, forensics is not exclusively the study of bones at a crime scene--it is the verification of evidence against a series of proofs. There are Forensic Anthropologists (the bone guys); Forensic Accountants (number crunchers) and what we do as Forensic Historians--gather information from many reporting sources and after sorting out the errors (and showing why the errors occur and how they might alter the story) being able to present a logical and complete telling of the incident under investigation.

"When you have eliminated the impossible--whatever is left, however improbable--must be the truth."

[Pathfinder]

As to collecting evidence--

There were other "incidents" in the same Group (different Squadron) on the same date.

073144 C-47A 42-100567 82TCS 436TCG 9 LAC 3 Wickland, Robert R ITA Voltone
073144 C-47A 42-100564 82TCS 436TCG 9 LAC 3 Biggerstaff, Joe T ITA Voltone

There are A/Rs (Accident Reports) for these....why not Plane 153--with terminal casualties.

[patelie]

Dave

As planes of the 82nd TCS were involved in the same formation and one of them has hit the trees of the same mountain, I will check the microfilm diary (while at home) to see if there is a mention of the crash, the unit carried, etc etc etc

[Pathfinder]

Magnifique!

You see old friend--I am working on my French!

Next we get together we will have to properly christen your new microfilm reader....

Jack Daniels avec Cola!

[salerno1943]

Dear Patrick and All,
many, many thanks for all your precious informations!!!

I'm just returned from high mountain of crash site with my friends. We spent a day to search it and we are not in good health for all hard work. However I'm glad to say we have a name: "James A. Wright". This name give you some idea? More news tomorrow or as soon is possible.
Again many thanks!!

[Pathfinder]

Good to "find" the name....but from what source? A dog tag? Piece of Equipment? What is the CONTEXT???

There was a James A. Wright from New Jersey who is listed as a wartime casualty...listed DNB...and Negro citizen...database does not specify date or unit. If he died overseas he was returned to US.

Do you have any additional information?

There is currently a JAMES A WRIGHT buried in Nettuno (SR) but he is white and a 1943 casualty from a Bomb Group....

CONTEXT!

[salerno1943]

Good to "find" the name....but from what source? A dog tag? Piece of Equipment? What is the CONTEXT???

There was a James A. Wright from New Jersey who is listed as a wartime casualty...listed DNB...and Negro citizen...database does not specify date or unit. If he died overseas he was returned to US.

Do you have any additional information?

There is currently a JAMES A WRIGHT buried in Nettuno (SR) but he is white and a 1943 casualty from a Bomb Group....

CONTEXT!

Many thanks. The name is from a personal item. There is also a number but it is not clear: 327704411.

[Pathfinder]

WRIGHT, JAMES A
PFC US ARMY
WORLD WAR II
DATE OF DEATH: 07/31/1944
BURIED AT: SECTION 79 SITE 461-463
JEFFERSON BARRACKS NATIONAL CEMETERY MISSOURI

32070411
NAME WRIGHT JAMES A
RESIDENCE: STATE NEW JERSEY
RESIDENCE: COUNTY OCEAN
PLACE OF ENLISTMENT TRENTON NEW JERSEY
DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 25
DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 03
DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 41
GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT
SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL Civil Life
NATIVITY PENNSYLVANIA
YEAR OF BIRTH 1918
RACE AND CITIZENSHIP Negro, citizen
EDUCATION Grammar school
CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 295 Elevator operators

Wright, James A, d. 07/31/1944, US Army, PFC, Plot: 79 0 461-463, bur. 01/17/1950

Plot: 79 0 461-463, shows three burials in this grave---so there are TWO more men from the same incident!!!

[salerno1943]

Plot: 79 0 461-463, shows three burials in this grave---so there are TWO more men from the same incident!!!

Again many thanks. Do you have some idea to know names of other men deceased in crash site? Thanks!!

[Pathfinder]

Wright, James A, d. 07/31/1944, US Army, PFC, Plot: 79 0 461-463, bur. 01/17/1950
Gaston, James A, d. 07/31/1944, Plot: 79 0 461-463, bur. 01/17/1950
Portee, Loney , d. 07/31/1944, US Army, PFC, Plot: 79 0 461-463, bur. 01/17/1950

So here are three (3) names all deceased on the DATE under discussion. All three buried on the same day in the same grave at Jefferson Barracks, Missouri. No unit referenced.

You can't unravel EVERY mystery in 54 minutes----this is not TV...

[salerno1943]

You are doing a precious job! Do you have some idea to contact relatives of crew and of these deceased soldiers?

[patelie]

Dave and Matteo

I checked the 82nd TCS diary. There is just a single entry
31 July .......... Hazardous trip to Foggia Air Base

no more information and the microfilm is not very good..

BTW Matteo, I saw that you found and item and a name........ And with Dave, believe me, you have the best researcher I ever know...

[Pathfinder]

PFC Loney Portee
ID: 33181358
Branch of Service: U.S. Army
Hometown: Washington, DC
Status: DNB

33181358
NAME PORTEE LONEY
RESIDENCE: STATE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
RESIDENCE: COUNTY DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
PLACE OF ENLISTMENT FT GEORGE G MEADE MARYLAND
DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 13
DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 04
DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 42
GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT
SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL Civil Life
NATIVITY SOUTH CAROLINA
YEAR OF BIRTH 1911
RACE AND CITIZENSHIP Negro, citizen
EDUCATION Grammar school
CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 736 Semiskilled chauffeurs and drivers, bus, taxi, truck, and tractor
MARITAL STATUS Single, without dependents


T SG James A. Gaston
ID: 33098086
Branch of Service: U.S. Army
Hometown: Norfolk County, VA
Status: DNB

33098086
NAME GASTON JAMES A
RESIDENCE: STATE VIRGINIA
RESIDENCE: COUNTY NORFOLK
PLACE OF ENLISTMENT RICHMOND VIRGINIA
DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 03
DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 09
DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 41
GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT
SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL Civil Life
NATIVITY FRENCH ASIATIC POSSESSIONS or FRENCH INDIA or FRENCH INDO-CHINA or SYRIA
YEAR OF BIRTH 1913
RACE AND CITIZENSHIP Negro, citizen
EDUCATION 4 years of high school
CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 284 Janitors and sextons
MARITAL STATUS Single, without dependents