Mon May 23, 2005 6:56 am
I'll wager ten dollars on Shelldrake, any takers ? 
Dave
Dave
Mon May 23, 2005 7:10 am
DaveM2.. I agree with you mate.
If there's a chance for it to ever be got out I think the Aussie group sounds the best bet. I still can't see how the USAFM can just lay claim to it when they apparently don't have any paperwork for any aircraft built before the mid 60's (I seem to remember something about a fire destroying all the records)
As for the "Lady of the Lake" B29 in AK I got told that it was thought of in the same way as a gate guard and there was no way it would ever be recovered.
Regards,
Richard
If there's a chance for it to ever be got out I think the Aussie group sounds the best bet. I still can't see how the USAFM can just lay claim to it when they apparently don't have any paperwork for any aircraft built before the mid 60's (I seem to remember something about a fire destroying all the records)
As for the "Lady of the Lake" B29 in AK I got told that it was thought of in the same way as a gate guard and there was no way it would ever be recovered.
Regards,
Richard
Mon May 23, 2005 7:24 am
Okay, that kind of cleared it up for me a bit.
If the USAFM got it gifted to them, then how did any of these other collectors/groups get title to it also? Are the PNG authorities working on the same kind of system we have in the UK, in that the authorities grant rights to recover to any number of groups, and whichever recovers the thing gets it?
As for the B-29, that will explain why the one on Guam is a dead ender as well.
Richard
If the USAFM got it gifted to them, then how did any of these other collectors/groups get title to it also? Are the PNG authorities working on the same kind of system we have in the UK, in that the authorities grant rights to recover to any number of groups, and whichever recovers the thing gets it?
As for the B-29, that will explain why the one on Guam is a dead ender as well.
Richard
Swamp Ghost Information
Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:09 pm
Dear All,
Hi there, this is Justin Taylan. I saw my name mentioned in this thread so wanted to write in with some links and information. Over the past years, I have become 'haunted' by the 'Swamp Ghost' myself. My goal with this bomber was/is to document is complete history, both wartime & contemporary. For anyone interested in information on the 'Swamp Ghost' here are a few links:
The Swamp Ghost DVD
http://www.TheSwampGhost.com
A DVD I created about the 'Swamp Ghost' with interviews with the veterans, wartime photos and a video walkthru that takes the viewer through the interior and exterior of the bomber.
Swamp Ghost Information Center
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/swampghost/
A webpage that covers all the history, wartime & postwar related to this wreck, including past attempts to salvage, petitions to protect and a registry of visitors to the crash site.
B-17E 41-2446
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-2446.html
Historical Profile of the aircraft and links to related information.
Regarding the future of this wreck... is certainly a hot issue and everyone has their own opinions.
Many feel sad that past salvage attempts have failed. I thought, Travis AFB's proposal was the best in the 1980s but they were never granted permission. Also sad is that there are many B-17s in the USA or around the world already in hangers/museums awaiting restoration. Including, the oldest B-17D "Swoose" in Air & Space Storage.
As it stands now 'Swamp Ghost' lies where the war left it. It has become last intact WWII bomber left in the world on land (as far as I know). For anyone interesting in visiting the 'Swamp Ghost' as a tourist it is possible.
I just returned this week from taking a group of 6 Australian tourist to the site. Walking there (on a prepared track) to pay tribute to the crew's escape. The visit was in cooperation with the local people who look after the bomber, and modest visitation fees go directly to them. The local people are the same ones that assisted the crew to safety, and have visited the wreck for decades. Of note, the objects removed from the wreck in the 1970s (instruments, guns, yokes) were done by outsiders.
If anyone wants to email with me directly with any questions or info, please send write me at - justin@wanpela.com if you wish to speak with me directly.
Yours in history,
- Justin Taylan
Hi there, this is Justin Taylan. I saw my name mentioned in this thread so wanted to write in with some links and information. Over the past years, I have become 'haunted' by the 'Swamp Ghost' myself. My goal with this bomber was/is to document is complete history, both wartime & contemporary. For anyone interested in information on the 'Swamp Ghost' here are a few links:
The Swamp Ghost DVD
http://www.TheSwampGhost.com
A DVD I created about the 'Swamp Ghost' with interviews with the veterans, wartime photos and a video walkthru that takes the viewer through the interior and exterior of the bomber.
Swamp Ghost Information Center
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/swampghost/
A webpage that covers all the history, wartime & postwar related to this wreck, including past attempts to salvage, petitions to protect and a registry of visitors to the crash site.
B-17E 41-2446
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-2446.html
Historical Profile of the aircraft and links to related information.
Regarding the future of this wreck... is certainly a hot issue and everyone has their own opinions.
Many feel sad that past salvage attempts have failed. I thought, Travis AFB's proposal was the best in the 1980s but they were never granted permission. Also sad is that there are many B-17s in the USA or around the world already in hangers/museums awaiting restoration. Including, the oldest B-17D "Swoose" in Air & Space Storage.
As it stands now 'Swamp Ghost' lies where the war left it. It has become last intact WWII bomber left in the world on land (as far as I know). For anyone interesting in visiting the 'Swamp Ghost' as a tourist it is possible.
I just returned this week from taking a group of 6 Australian tourist to the site. Walking there (on a prepared track) to pay tribute to the crew's escape. The visit was in cooperation with the local people who look after the bomber, and modest visitation fees go directly to them. The local people are the same ones that assisted the crew to safety, and have visited the wreck for decades. Of note, the objects removed from the wreck in the 1970s (instruments, guns, yokes) were done by outsiders.
If anyone wants to email with me directly with any questions or info, please send write me at - justin@wanpela.com if you wish to speak with me directly.
Yours in history,
- Justin Taylan
Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:49 pm
Whomever can get it out the fastest and restore it for dsplay has my vote! Just my 2 cents worth.
Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:04 am
Pat Carry wrote:Whomever can get it out the fastest and restore it for dsplay has my vote! Just my 2 cents worth.
They'd get mine also. At this point I'd just like it saved.
Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:14 pm
Well for mine I just hope someone recovers it whilst it is worth the effort - I believe she is getting more and more "liberated " of artifacts as the years go by.
I would love to see her come to Australia but if she doesn't then just any B17 would be great as we don't have one here and they played such a role here during the war. I am sure there are a couple of organisations here well capable of handling the operation so good luck!
There is another more interesting B17 to me in the Owen Stanley Ranges in PNG which although very wrecked is a much more historic aircraft which I would prefer to see brought out. B17E BuNo41-9234 if she is still there was a RAF airframe which never made it to the RAF and is a Phillipines and Indonesian Vet - well worth saving if she still exists in Black Cat Pass. I saw her several times and she has real Magic to her - Bring that one home !!
Regards
John P
I would love to see her come to Australia but if she doesn't then just any B17 would be great as we don't have one here and they played such a role here during the war. I am sure there are a couple of organisations here well capable of handling the operation so good luck!
There is another more interesting B17 to me in the Owen Stanley Ranges in PNG which although very wrecked is a much more historic aircraft which I would prefer to see brought out. B17E BuNo41-9234 if she is still there was a RAF airframe which never made it to the RAF and is a Phillipines and Indonesian Vet - well worth saving if she still exists in Black Cat Pass. I saw her several times and she has real Magic to her - Bring that one home !!
Regards
John P
Details on Black Cat Pass B-17
Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:18 pm
Here are the historical details on the B-17E 41-9234 mentioned:
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-9234.html
Three of its crew are also still alive, pilot, co-pilot & bombardier. I have had the honor to interview the co-pilot, Hoggan and speak to the Australian Commando myself. Will add those interviews when time premits to the website.
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-9234.html
Three of its crew are also still alive, pilot, co-pilot & bombardier. I have had the honor to interview the co-pilot, Hoggan and speak to the Australian Commando myself. Will add those interviews when time premits to the website.
Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:38 pm
Setter
With the insurance issues in Europe. You may one day get your wish and Sally B might find her way down under. Just my mindless thoughts mind you, that's all.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
With the insurance issues in Europe. You may one day get your wish and Sally B might find her way down under. Just my mindless thoughts mind you, that's all.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:44 am
Shay
I don't think Sally B will really go anywhere as she is really an icon over there - I would hope she stays - there are still enough unwanted ones around for me - I really hope we get one of the PNG wrecks soon - that would be nice and I would prefer the banged up one rather than "Swamp Ghost'
Regards
John P
I don't think Sally B will really go anywhere as she is really an icon over there - I would hope she stays - there are still enough unwanted ones around for me - I really hope we get one of the PNG wrecks soon - that would be nice and I would prefer the banged up one rather than "Swamp Ghost'
Regards
John P
recoveries from New Guinea
Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:11 am
John,
No medium or heavy bomber has ever recovered from New Guinea that I know of to date (if I am wrong I will gladly stand corrected). The only exception would be the light bombers: A-20s the Royal Australian Air Force got in 1984 as an excercise (3 of them, restored 2 to static, "Hell'N Pelican" & "J is for Jessica"). And, back in the '74 another A-20 for Yesterday's Air Force from Tadji.
Plenty of P-40s (nearly everyone I know of) have been recovered for warbird market since 1970s. Matter of fact aside from a few violent crash sites and a couple in water, I can't think of any left as wrecks offhand. Same with P-47 and P-38 wrecks, just a few partial wrecks left, and rumors of a few intact ones in far off places. The post-war scrappers melted the rest down post war.
Most recently, in 2004, the best (?) P-47s, of MIA pilot Marion Lutes was recovered from a mountain, and two P-40 crash sites. Links to these are off PacificWrecks.com Others were dug up at Finschafen and are at WestPac in CA (3 P-47s and at least one P-38) and F4U parts from New Britain airfield.
Two Australian groups do the salvages with permits from the PNG Museum; HARS (working with others at times Precision Aerospace, Classic Jets and other individuals etc) and '75 Squadron' of Melborne. A couple other wrecks were attempted to be salvaged by others without permits but did not happen.
There are 'rumors' of everything from P-61s to the kitchen sink being dug up or found, but as of yet, no photos, serials or details to confirm those tails. There were P-61s in New Guinea (assembled at Finschafen & flown off to fronts) and even later war planes like P-51s but no line-ups of pristine wrecks of either type that I know of!
I have asked all the known salvagers for interviews, but only some have agreed or provided information. Anyone with any other serials or photos let me know. The more history that is in the public domain, the more we all can know & learn from these wrecks.
Even 60+ years on there are errors in records, and so forth that are sometimes not resolved until a wreck is visited. For instance, one P-40 examined (and later recovered in '04) the pilot, Thorvaldson, is still alive reviewed photos & video of bullet holes in his plane. He had been denied purple heart for wounds that mission as it was thought during the war his plane crashed due to mechanical failure. So a happy ending there!
Hope this helps.
No medium or heavy bomber has ever recovered from New Guinea that I know of to date (if I am wrong I will gladly stand corrected). The only exception would be the light bombers: A-20s the Royal Australian Air Force got in 1984 as an excercise (3 of them, restored 2 to static, "Hell'N Pelican" & "J is for Jessica"). And, back in the '74 another A-20 for Yesterday's Air Force from Tadji.
Plenty of P-40s (nearly everyone I know of) have been recovered for warbird market since 1970s. Matter of fact aside from a few violent crash sites and a couple in water, I can't think of any left as wrecks offhand. Same with P-47 and P-38 wrecks, just a few partial wrecks left, and rumors of a few intact ones in far off places. The post-war scrappers melted the rest down post war.
Most recently, in 2004, the best (?) P-47s, of MIA pilot Marion Lutes was recovered from a mountain, and two P-40 crash sites. Links to these are off PacificWrecks.com Others were dug up at Finschafen and are at WestPac in CA (3 P-47s and at least one P-38) and F4U parts from New Britain airfield.
Two Australian groups do the salvages with permits from the PNG Museum; HARS (working with others at times Precision Aerospace, Classic Jets and other individuals etc) and '75 Squadron' of Melborne. A couple other wrecks were attempted to be salvaged by others without permits but did not happen.
There are 'rumors' of everything from P-61s to the kitchen sink being dug up or found, but as of yet, no photos, serials or details to confirm those tails. There were P-61s in New Guinea (assembled at Finschafen & flown off to fronts) and even later war planes like P-51s but no line-ups of pristine wrecks of either type that I know of!
I have asked all the known salvagers for interviews, but only some have agreed or provided information. Anyone with any other serials or photos let me know. The more history that is in the public domain, the more we all can know & learn from these wrecks.
Even 60+ years on there are errors in records, and so forth that are sometimes not resolved until a wreck is visited. For instance, one P-40 examined (and later recovered in '04) the pilot, Thorvaldson, is still alive reviewed photos & video of bullet holes in his plane. He had been denied purple heart for wounds that mission as it was thought during the war his plane crashed due to mechanical failure. So a happy ending there!
Hope this helps.
Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:40 am
Hi Justin
There were a few more A20s than that recovered - 10 in total I think and some of these have now and will be soon going to Precision aerospace for restoration including the Famous Big Nig. I think the attitudes and abilities of the recovery teams have changed a lot and I think given the skill sets they have it won't be long before more big things happen, I also think the eastern and scandinavian european stuff will become much more of a focus .
Exciting times ahead for the next 5-10 years I think.
Regards
John P
There were a few more A20s than that recovered - 10 in total I think and some of these have now and will be soon going to Precision aerospace for restoration including the Famous Big Nig. I think the attitudes and abilities of the recovery teams have changed a lot and I think given the skill sets they have it won't be long before more big things happen, I also think the eastern and scandinavian european stuff will become much more of a focus .
Exciting times ahead for the next 5-10 years I think.
Regards
John P
Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:44 am
Col Rohr
Indeed you are correct - the entire wing assembly and other parts of a B24 were recovered from the rimu valley PNG to facilitate the restoration of the Werribee B24 - Well spotted that man!! More B24s there too as well as at least 3 B17s and a pile of Japanese stuff that suddenly may be comming out - seems they got a map somewhere ..........
Regards
John P
Indeed you are correct - the entire wing assembly and other parts of a B24 were recovered from the rimu valley PNG to facilitate the restoration of the Werribee B24 - Well spotted that man!! More B24s there too as well as at least 3 B17s and a pile of Japanese stuff that suddenly may be comming out - seems they got a map somewhere ..........
Regards
John P
Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:45 am
Col Rohr
Indeed you are correct - the entire wing assembly and other parts of a B24 were recovered from the rimu valley PNG to facilitate the restoration of the Werribee B24 - Well spotted that man!! More B24s there too as well as at least 3 B17s and a pile of Japanese stuff that suddenly may be comming out - seems they got a map somewhere ..........
Regards
John P
Indeed you are correct - the entire wing assembly and other parts of a B24 were recovered from the rimu valley PNG to facilitate the restoration of the Werribee B24 - Well spotted that man!! More B24s there too as well as at least 3 B17s and a pile of Japanese stuff that suddenly may be comming out - seems they got a map somewhere ..........
Regards
John P
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:02 am
Tallichet has TWO A-20s.
One in PA and one at Pima.
One in PA and one at Pima.