Kamikazi's

[rreis]

I have a grudging respect for the Japanese suicide pilots. Many westerners like to dismiss them as fanatical Emperor-worshippers, but most were intelligent young men who didn't want to die, but simply saw self-sacrifice as the only way left to defend their country and people from an overwhelmingly powerful enemy how was pounding their country into oblivion. If the situation were reversed, I bet many American's would voluntarily make the same choice.

SN

Funnily I think if you read popular references from the beginning of the war for the US that is one of the possibilities put fourth. And, on that other ally of the war (AKA USSR), ramming pilots and suicide attacks where not unheard of. So... desperate times, desperate measures?

[Mark_Pilkington]

Or to be really pedantic, the Germans were sinking a lot of Allied ships in the Pacific and were being hunted by the Allied navies and air forces in 1940 and through 1941. In fact it's interesting that though Pearl Harbor was attacked on the 8th of December 1941, our time, a chap called Thomas Mack who was born here in my home town and who was was a merchant seaman was killed alongside his captain in a battle between his ship, the Komata, and the German Navy raider Komet (disguised as a Japanese fishing vessel I might add, now that's a sneak attack!) off Nauru on the 8th of December 1940. Try telling him that the Paciic War was still a year away. I doubt he'd believe you.

Later that month 496 survivors of numerous ships that had been captured and sunk by the German Navy's 'auxiliary cruiers' in the Pacific Ocean and Tasman Sea were discovered at the remote Emirau Island where they's been dumped by the Germans to fend for themselves. A lot more than them were aboard those ships, many were killed in these attacks, and some of those ships like the Turakina went down fighting with 36 men lost, 20 survivos, heroes to a man. Tell them there was no war in the Pacific till 8th of December 1941.

These raiders also sank the Rangitane, the Holmwood and right close to NZ's shores they sank the luxury liner Niagara with mines they'd laid in the shipping lane. These are just the kiwi ships that the Komet, the Orion and the Komerant got. They got a load of Australian ships too in the Pacific and Tasman, The Germans had nine of these fast, heavily armed auxiliary cruisers, named raiders by the Allies, roaming the seas at will picking off Allied ships and they were around the Asian countries and in the Indian Ocean too I believe, in 1941.

The RAN Cruiser HMAS Sydney II was lost in a battle of the coast of Western Australia against the German raider HSK Kormoran in November 1941 with the loss of all hands, that was the Indian Ocean, but Germany was engaged in many theatres beyond Europe including across the Southern Hemisphere, and in the Pacific. The wrecks of both ships were only recently discovered, and the lack of any RAN survivors to testify in regards to the battle, resulted in rumours and strong suspicions of Japanese involvement in the sinking, given it occurred a month before Pearl Harbour.

However the wartime testimony of the captured crew from the Kormoran has subsequently been proven the wrecks to be correct, and the various rumours of what had happened, including involvement by a Japanese submarine, have all been dispelled.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[Mark_Pilkington]

duplicate post deleted.

Mark Pilkington

[whistlingdeath77]

thank god we had the brave men to stand at their stations to defend their ships to the end.

[Jollygreenslugg]

thank god we had the brave men to stand at their stations to defend their ships to the end.

Yep, just as the Japanese also had brave men who stood at their stations to defend their ships to the end.

Cheers,
Matt

[Dave Homewood]

By co-incidence I interviewed a chap this morning who had been a Royal Marine seaman bugler aboard HMS Indefatigable in the battle Okinawa, as a 16 year old boy (with two years experience on the carrier already i might add). He was on deck when the carrier was hit by the first Kamikaze of the battle, and it landed 40 feet from him he said. Everyone he'd been with an instant before were dead, one of them was made into mincemeat. He was badly burned and he said he had black patches on his face and chest for 15 years afetr the war till the skin regenerated eventually - now you'd never know he was burned. he was taken off the carrier three days later when the supply ship came and was taken to Sydney where he spent three months in hospital. When he had healed physically he was still very meantally scarred. he freely talked about being doolally, as he put it. He'd already been though battles in four Russian convoys, and in the Indian Ocean, but this attack really stuffed him, and he was a mere kid still. They took him back to Britian where he went to a pecial hospital where he said a wonderful doctor managed to cure him, and after that he was ok again. He stayed in the Marines till 1955 and even served in the last Royal Marine detachment to a Royal New Zealand Navy ship.

It's an amazing privbilege to meet guys who were there. Soon there will be none and we'll only have books and documentaries, meeting them in the flesh is so much more.

[John Dupre]

I have been reading Sherrod's book about USMC aviation in World War 2. He mentions in passing that at Iwo Jima or Okinawa a US Navy four aircraft division shot down 50 Kamikaze aircraft in a few days. Anyone have any idea who those pilots were?

[the330thbg]

I have a grudging respect for the Japanese suicide pilots. Many westerners like to dismiss them as fanatical Emperor-worshippers, but most were intelligent young men who didn't want to die, but simply saw self-sacrifice as the only way left to defend their country and people from an overwhelmingly powerful enemy how was pounding their country into oblivion. If the situation were reversed, I bet many American's would voluntarily make the same choice.

SN

I agree with you 100%%%

as Patton once said "War is the supreme test of man in which he rises to heights never approached in any other activity."

[Hemiman]

The only successful Ohka attacks were against US ships. For some reason, they attacked destroyers..not exactly high value targets. You'd think they would have gone after carriers.

From Wiki:

On 12 April 1945, nine "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. The destroyer Mannert L. Abele was hit, broke in two, and sank, witnessed by LSMR-189 CO James M. Stewart. Jeffers destroyed an Ohka with AA fire 45 m (50 yd) from the ship, but the resulting explosion was still powerful enough to cause extensive damage, forcing Jeffers to withdraw. The destroyer Stanly was attacked by two Ohkas. One struck just above the waterline, with the charge punching completely through to the other side of the hull before splashing into the sea and detonating, causing little damage to the ship, and the other Ohka narrowly missed and crashed into the sea, knocking off the Stanly's ensign in the process.

May 1945 saw another series of attacks. On 4 May 1945, seven "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. One Ohka hit the bridge of a minesweeper, Shea, causing extensive damage and casualties. Gayety was also damaged by a near-miss by an Ohka. One "Betty" returned. On 11 May 1945, four "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. The destroyer Hugh W. Hadley was hit and suffered extensive damage and flooding.

From what I've always read, the Ohka was designed expressly as an anti-shipping weapon. Any air-to-air use would likely have been a last-ditch desperation tactic. As 330thbg says, they had very limited fuel and were extremely difficult to control in anything but a straight-in run at a relatively slow target. Hitting an aircraft in flight would be next to impossible, especially for pilots with only rudimentary training. The Japanese did have specialized ramming squadrons for use against B-29s..sometimes the pilot was able to bail out, but it was usually seen as a suicide attack. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to find that Ohkas were used as well.

I have a grudging respect for the Japanese suicide pilots. Many westerners like to dismiss them as fanatical Emperor-worshippers, but most were intelligent young men who didn't want to die, but simply saw self-sacrifice as the only way left to defend their country and people from an overwhelmingly powerful enemy how was pounding their country into oblivion. If the situation were reversed, I bet many American's would voluntarily make the same choice.

SN

A very good book to read about the Kamikaze pilots is "THUNDER GODS" by Hatsuho Naito. Per the book, I don't recall any mention of use of the "Maru Dai" ,the code name for the Ohka, against aircraft, but it does mention building "body crash" weapons for air-to-air use. The Ohka was built to pierce armor,the main objective being stopping the U.S. Navy fleet and the invasion troops they carried. In one successful hit, an Ohka went completely through a ship and exploded in the water. Considering how few were built, it's hard to believe any were used air-to-air, BUT, you can't argue with what people have seen and commented on.

Bill

[plankwings]

I have a book, that I read last year, about the German's having a Kamikazi group late in the war. They had plans to bring down US aircraft by ramming them. When I find it, I will post the details

Plankwings

[Dan K]

I have a book, that I read last year, about the German's having a Kamikazi group late in the war. They had plans to bring down US aircraft by ramming them. When I find it, I will post the details

Plankwings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammkommando_%22ELBE%22

[airnutz]

I have to wonder about the mindset of the design team of the manned flying bombs. Did they get to a point in the testing regime where they realised it was so unstable it needed a pilot?

I don't think the designers had that luxury of time or resources with that possible development Dave. From concept in summer of '44, to test flight in Oct '44, and 1st missions by March '45. Pretty much a desperation weapon. They did have some remote-guided and self-guided projects in the works, but the Allies were at the door.

or did they set out from the beginning with human scarifice in mind? It's a bizarre thing that is unpallatable to most other nations and cultures.

We were dealing with a people who lived daily with the ghosts of their ancestors... a trip to the other side is a family re-union.

[shrike]

I have to wonder about the mindset of the design team of the manned flying bombs. Did they get to a point in the testing regime where they realised it was so unstable it needed a pilot? or did they set out from the beginning with human scarifice in mind? It's a bizarre thing that is unpallatable to most other nations and cultures.

Off the shelf hardware for a guidance system. Amazingly bandwidth, readily programmable, superior spatial processing and easily produced with unskilled labour.
Seriously, we get spoiled by our current level of technology. A relatively reliable self guided 'fire and forget' missile is a recent development, and the sort of target discrimination and 'on the fly' re-targeting and damage assessment available to even a poorly trained pilot is still the stuff of current science fiction.
The Germans developed similar ideas with the Fi103, and the US with Aphrodite. Both allowed for the pilot to bail out, but....

The idea of the 'Noble Sacrifice' is common in the west too, otherwise the VC and MoH wouldn't be most commonly awarded posthumously. The Japanese, I think, just added an element of pure economy. One man dying in a cheaply built aircraft to take out several hundred in an expensive ship makes for an easy, albeit cold, calculation

Last edited by shrike on Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Invader26]

Today's version.....to save their country

The helicopter crews and nuclear power station technicians who are fighting the issues today in Japan. They are sacrificing themselves knowingly.

Good luck to them..

[Dave Homewood]

The Royal Navy had radio-control guided un-manned aircraft in 1935, the de Havilland Queen Bee. So the technology was around long before 1944.