Kamikazi's

[Zachary]

REMOVED POST

REMOVED POST

For the love of Pete, please stop wrecking threads with personal attacks. It's getting old...

[JDK]

Here's an idea - tackle the argument, not the person. Unless you apologise now for your personal attack, you should be given some time out to think about basic manners. This isn't behind the bike sheds in some playground.

Most of us here can respect others' views - that's from their respect extended in return - even if we don't agree. Try it.

If you want your history simple and jingoistic, feel free, but don't complain because others can handle more complex understanding.

[airnutz]

my point was simply that it isn't fair to excroriate the Japanese for their sneak attack and applaud us for using sound tactics. It was sound military tactics (although in the scope of a larger strategic failure) that we use and will continue to use. It is stupid to give away the advantage of surprise. Not saying it was right or that there is any comparison between the US and WWII era Japan. Just that it's silly on its face to hate Japan for a sneak attack when we would do the same thing AND DO.

Your a liberal piece of monkey dung. Your nothing more than a used tampon to me. Why do you bother even posting when you should drink bleech and end it?

You do know Mr. Re-enactor, that your advising a fellow who EARNED a Purple Heart to off himself because you don't like what he has to say. I believe he's earned the right, more than most of us here, to voice his thoughts...

[Dave Homewood]

This has been an interesting thread, barring the torpedo attack near the end.

I'd like to point out the thread's title and several members are spelling Kamikaze incorrectly. Also I noted this statement?

... the destroyer USS Ward which fired the first shots of the Pacific war when it engaged a Japanese midget sub off Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th, 1941.

I thought that the first shots of the Pacific War were fired in a fight between RAAF Hudsons and the Japanese off of Malaya? I seem to recall it was some hours before people were getting out of bed in Pearl Harbor.

Or to be really pedantic, the Germans were sinking a lot of Allied ships in the Pacific and were being hunted by the Allied navies and air forces in 1940 and through 1941. In fact it's interesting that though Pearl Harbor was attacked on the 8th of December 1941, our time, a chap called Thomas Mack who was born here in my home town and who was was a merchant seaman was killed alongside his captain in a battle between his ship, the Komata, and the German Navy raider Komet (disguised as a Japanese fishing vessel I might add, now that's a sneak attack!) off Nauru on the 8th of December 1940. Try telling him that the Paciic War was still a year away. I doubt he'd believe you.

Later that month 496 survivors of numerous ships that had been captured and sunk by the German Navy's 'auxiliary cruiers' in the Pacific Ocean and Tasman Sea were discovered at the remote Emirau Island where they's been dumped by the Germans to fend for themselves. A lot more than them were aboard those ships, many were killed in these attacks, and some of those ships like the Turakina went down fighting with 36 men lost, 20 survivos, heroes to a man. Tell them there was no war in the Pacific till 8th of December 1941.

These raiders also sank the Rangitane, the Holmwood and right close to NZ's shores they sank the luxury liner Niagara with mines they'd laid in the shipping lane. These are just the kiwi ships that the Komet, the Orion and the Komerant got. They got a load of Australian ships too in the Pacific and Tasman, The Germans had nine of these fast, heavily armed auxiliary cruisers, named raiders by the Allies, roaming the seas at will picking off Allied ships and they were around the Asian countries and in the Indian Ocean too I believe, in 1941.

Back to the main topic - I too have met men who were attacked by Kamikazes, one was British and four were kiwis, all of them aboard HMS Invincible which was hit twice. After each they poured a bit of concrete into the dent that the plane had made on the steel deck and within 45 minutes the carrier was fully operational again. They were lucky to be in the British carriers I think. One told me he was with his mates and just nipped down the stairs to the loo. He looked out the window in time to see a Japanese plane explode between his carrier and the close escort ship - hit by the ships guns. The wreckage hit the ship where he'd previously been stood with his mates, who bought it. I agree with the sentiments that it must have been bloody awful to be on the receiving end.

There was at least one FAA Corsair squadron commander who was mortally hit, so he dived into a ship. I can't recall his name but my mate was flying with him at the time and saw it. Might have been a Canadian I think?

I seem to also recall reading that the first ship sunk by Kamikase was Australian??

[JDK]

Good points, Dave. Anyone for HMAS Sydney, lost with all hands to German raider HSK Kormoran before the 'start' as well?

I agree with the sentiments that it must have been bloody awful to be on the receiving end.

Can't be (re-)stated often enough. But then war's not a nice thing all over, despite our tendency to ritualise it.

There was at least one FAA Corsair squadron commander who was mortally hit, so he dived into a ship. I can't recall his name but my mate was flying with him at the time and saw it. Might have been a Canadian I think?

I think you're thinking of Hampton Grey VC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hampton_Gray

Cheers,

[TimAPNY]

The deleted comments have been moved to the MOD Decision area.

Lets get back onto topic and stay within the topic from this point forward.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

CHEERS!

Tim

[CDF]

I seem to also recall reading that the first ship sunk by Kamikase was Australian??

My reading is that it was the first ship attacked by that method but not lost, (HMAS Australia and the date 21st October 1944)

http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/waratsea/kamikaze.html

Reg Walker, who was serving in Australia, described the scene on board when the kamikaze hit the ship:

And suddenly gunfire opened up, and there was ... all hell broke loose, and the next minute there's one helluva bang, and the mast, which was a tripod mast, part of it came down into ... into our radar room, and - part of the tripod - and that shook and threw us around a little bit. And our door was jammed. I opened our door, and we got out with our anti-flash gear that we wear to stop any flames and that sort of thing, and we were called to ... that there was fire on the bridge, which ... it was fortunate in one sense, because whenever there was a fire during training it was always on the bridge, and the guys were trained so wonderfully well they had the fire out pretty quickly and it was very well done.

I thought we'd been hit by a ... a bomb or something, I didn't know what it was at the time. But then when we got up and there was such a helluva fire blazing - I suppose the petrol that ... or fuel that exploded on the plane, and we learnt later that it had been hit and it was already alight as it crashed in onto the ... onto ... onto the bridge or the compass platform, and down past B turret, and onto the deck, and the foredeck, and then went over the side.

Some of us were instructed to ... to help ... anyone that wasn't going out on gun and firing duties to get up there as quickly as we can and do what help what we could.

The kamikaze aircraft had wiped out the bridge of the ship.

And the captain was in a sitting position and - Captain Dechaineux - and he ... we were able to get him down into the rec room - recreation room - which was two ... two flights down from there ... from the bridge, and ... Two decks down. And Admiral Collins had gone by then, he'd been wounded, had a nasty cut under the eye. And Captain Dechaineux had this hole in his stomach, and he was burnt a little, his lips were rather swollen. And ... and it was a tragic sight. Commander Rayment was dead. And there were a lot of badly burnt people around that area. Some were dead, some were still alive. And I was down - by then we'd got the Captain down and others down, they kept coming down into the rec room. Those that were alive. And the sick-bay attendants were there. The commander-surgeon, Flattery, he was there. And very active. A very big man. And I remember Captain Dechaineux saying - he was conscious but ... and he was asking all the time whether there were sufficient ... whether the troops were ... those that were injured were being looked after. You know, you're very conscious of his role as a gentleman, and … as a very much-loved captain. And he kept saying, ‘Look after them,’ Just how serious are the injuries? And that, that’s all he was interested in.

[Reg Walker, HMAS Australia, interview June 1989, Keith Murdoch Sound Archive, AWM]

[muddyboots]

Say what you will about suicide bombers you gotta admit they certainly had big brass balls. I mean, it would have to take a deal of concentration to guide an aircraft in under heavy fire and hold it on target while being shot to snot. I bet they couldn't even close their eyes on the way in. And the steel nerves it would take to stay at your guns while a plane was diving down at you WOW! THose were men by god!

[the330thbg]

The 'other' Kamikaze were the poor ba$tards in the 'Oka's'. These were basically flying jet powered bombs similar to the ones the Germans utilized against the UK. The main difference is that the Japanese soldered a young pilot into theirs.

They were slung underneath a Betty Bomber, flown to an altitude just above the B-29's and ignited. They had about 2 mins of acceleration and were apparently very difficult to control. Of all the stories I have heard or read.., I can not find a single instance of one of them hitting their target other than the open sea. I could see them being more effective on a warship than a B-29.., as they would just dive and out run them.

The B-29 crewmen called them 'Fireballs'.

[old iron]

SaxMan wrote:

At Midway, after the carriers were sunk and they were going after the surface ships, a U.S. dive bomber crashed one of the turrets on the Mikuma. The fire it started ended up out of control, and eventually the ship was sunk.

While this is a common fixture of older books on the Battle of Midway, more recent research (see "Shattered Sword", Parshall and Tully, 2005) shows that in actuality no American aircraft crash-dived onto the Mikuma.

[shrike]

The 'other' Kamikaze were the poor ba$tards in the 'Oka's'. These were basically flying jet powered bombs similar to the ones the Germans utilized against the UK. The main difference is that the Japanese soldered a young pilot into theirs.

They were slung underneath a Betty Bomber, flown to an altitude just above the B-29's and ignited. They had about 2 mins of acceleration and were apparently very difficult to control. Of all the stories I have heard or read.., I can not find a single instance of one of them hitting their target other than the open sea. I could see them being more effective on a warship than a B-29.., as they would just dive and out run them.

The B-29 crewmen called them 'Fireballs'.

They were never used or intended for air-to-air use. They were primarily an anti-ship weapon. Wikipedia's article on the Ohka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_MXY7_Ohka gives a brief description of their operational use and the (very) few successes that they did have.

As to a B-29 outrunning one in the highly unlikely event that it ever became an issue, um..no

MXY7 max speed level flight 400mph (approx), Dive 650mph
B-29 cruise 220mph, max 350mph (approx) - and I'm guessing that too would be in a dive.

[the330thbg]

The 'other' Kamikaze were the poor ba$tards in the 'Oka's'. These were basically flying jet powered bombs similar to the ones the Germans utilized against the UK. The main difference is that the Japanese soldered a young pilot into theirs.
They were slung underneath a Betty Bomber, flown to an altitude just above the B-29's and ignited. They had about 2 mins of acceleration and were apparently very difficult to control. Of all the stories I have heard or read.., I can not find a single instance of one of them hitting their target other than the open sea. I could see them being more effective on a warship than a B-29.., as they would just dive and out run them.
The B-29 crewmen called them 'Fireballs'.

They were never used or intended for air-to-air use. They were primarily an anti-ship weapon. Wikipedia's article on the Ohka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_MXY7_Ohka gives a brief description of their operational use and the (very) few successes that they did have.

As to a B-29 outrunning one in the highly unlikely event that it ever became an issue, um..no

MXY7 max speed level flight 400mph (approx), Dive 650mph
B-29 cruise 220mph, max 350mph (approx) - and I'm guessing that too would be in a dive.

Well, explain that to my father and his crew! They dove and out ran one over Tokyo Bay.
All I have ever heard is air to air use. They had very limited fuel and were very hard to control. Most of the B-29'ers that I have interviewed or read about all say they saw them just fall into the sea.

They were easy to out run because the Oka's could only reach a max speed burst for minutes then rapidly fall behind.

Wikipedia sux!

[Dave Homewood]

I have to wonder about the mindset of the design team of the manned flying bombs. Did they get to a point in the testing regime where they realised it was so unstable it needed a pilot? or did they set out from the beginning with human scarifice in mind? It's a bizarre thing that is unpallatable to most other nations and cultures.

[goshikisen]

Well, explain that to my father and his crew! They dove and out ran one over Tokyo Bay.
All I have ever heard is air to air use. They had very limited fuel and were very hard to control. Most of the B-29'ers that I have interviewed or read about all say they saw them just fall into the sea.

They were easy to out run because the Oka's could only reach a max speed burst for minutes then rapidly fall behind.

Wikipedia sux!

A number of years back I read a book written by one of the principle figures behind the Ohka and the Special Attack Squadrons. In the book the Ohka was designed as both a shore-launched (kinda like a V-1 launch system) and air-launched anti-shipping bomb/missile. I don't recall any mention of air-to-air but, then again, it was a number of years ago that I read the book so I could be wrong.

[Steve Nelson]

The only successful Ohka attacks were against US ships. For some reason, they attacked destroyers..not exactly high value targets. You'd think they would have gone after carriers.

From Wiki:

On 12 April 1945, nine "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. The destroyer Mannert L. Abele was hit, broke in two, and sank, witnessed by LSMR-189 CO James M. Stewart. Jeffers destroyed an Ohka with AA fire 45 m (50 yd) from the ship, but the resulting explosion was still powerful enough to cause extensive damage, forcing Jeffers to withdraw. The destroyer Stanly was attacked by two Ohkas. One struck just above the waterline, with the charge punching completely through to the other side of the hull before splashing into the sea and detonating, causing little damage to the ship, and the other Ohka narrowly missed and crashed into the sea, knocking off the Stanly's ensign in the process.

May 1945 saw another series of attacks. On 4 May 1945, seven "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. One Ohka hit the bridge of a minesweeper, Shea, causing extensive damage and casualties. Gayety was also damaged by a near-miss by an Ohka. One "Betty" returned. On 11 May 1945, four "Bettys" attacked the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. The destroyer Hugh W. Hadley was hit and suffered extensive damage and flooding.

From what I've always read, the Ohka was designed expressly as an anti-shipping weapon. Any air-to-air use would likely have been a last-ditch desperation tactic. As 330thbg says, they had very limited fuel and were extremely difficult to control in anything but a straight-in run at a relatively slow target. Hitting an aircraft in flight would be next to impossible, especially for pilots with only rudimentary training. The Japanese did have specialized ramming squadrons for use against B-29s..sometimes the pilot was able to bail out, but it was usually seen as a suicide attack. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to find that Ohkas were used as well.

I have a grudging respect for the Japanese suicide pilots. Many westerners like to dismiss them as fanatical Emperor-worshippers, but most were intelligent young men who didn't want to die, but simply saw self-sacrifice as the only way left to defend their country and people from an overwhelmingly powerful enemy how was pounding their country into oblivion. If the situation were reversed, I bet many American's would voluntarily make the same choice.

SN