Kamikazi's

[the330thbg]

I know the kamikaze attacks were working so successfully that LeMay was ordered by Nimitz to bomb the kamikaze bases on Kanoya for the entire month of April 1945 through early May.

[Cubs]

Japanese kamikaze was not limited to aircraft. They did have kamikaze submarines, actually were manned torpedoes. I think they sank one ship.

[airnutz]

Time doesn't heal all wounds.
We have (had) a large number of Bataan Death March survivors here in Albuquerque. The ones I spoke with, still had a deep hatred of the Japanese people, even 60 years after the war.

Yep, I knew a Bataan survivor in San Antonio in the 1980's. Herb was 6'2" or better and he really stood out in the crowd. He still detested the Japanese with a passion. There was a History Channel program about Bataan several years ago(90's?) and he was still kickin'...pencil thin mustache and all.

[shrike]

you have to admire the japanese devotion to their cause.can you imagine US pilots crashing into japanese carriers and destroyers?
you cant say they werent comitted to the cause.

Actually I've read at least one account that claimed the Japanese were inspired by the damage done by a crippled F4F that did just that. Had it been a developed idea before that, the attack on Pearl might have been even worse.

[shrike]

Japanese kamikaze was not limited to aircraft. They did have kamikaze submarines, actually were manned torpedoes. I think they sank one ship.

Also Shinyo speedboats with bows filled full of explosives. Eight sinkings, two cripplings off Luzon and Okinawa

[tom d. friedman]

an excellent book is entitled "SUICIDE SQUADS OF WW 2" BY RICHARD O'NEILL, copyright 1981. covers all aspects of japanese suicide attack programs, as well as italy, germany, & yes great britain!! lots of pics & diagrams, the book is as comprehensive as it gets!! isbn # is 0-88029-299-7 if it's still in print i highly recommend it!!

[JDK]

Actually I've read at least one account that claimed the Japanese were inspired by the damage done by a crippled F4F that did just that. Had it been a developed idea before that, the attack on Pearl might have been even worse.

I agree there were certainly 'spur of the moment' precedents by Allied airmen. However, like most western contemporary and later reporting of Japanese motivations, I'd be very careful of taking them as sound. Even today there are many myths continually perpetrated. Whatever the initial inspiration for Kamikaze concepts, it needed Japanese military champions and a perverted social and military culture for it to develop as it did.

There's no reason to see any Kamikaze attacks by Japanese airmen on December 7th. It was a completely different scenario. (Also, as we all know the decisive factor at Pearl was the absence of the carriers in port.)

Regards,

[whistlingdeath77]

Where do you feel that there is a need for sympathy on that for the Japanese?

Not what I said, nor my points for this discussion. Have another read.

We lost battle after battle until Midway turned it around for us. I'd have to say that was a last-minute miracle resort for us, and it was fulfilled.

Midway isn't near the continental United States, hence the name, and was far from a 'last minute' miracle. Spielberg's 1941 isn't a documentary.

Midway was far less a defence of the homeland and a step before invasion than the Battle of Britain was - itself, an early battle in a longer-to-run strategy. In all cases, they were important, decisive, historic battles of critical importance to the war. But the US was not even nearly at risk of invasion, as Japan was when the Kamikaze system was brought to a peak.

Once Japan attacked the US, and the US government decided not to fight a limited war, Japan was doomed to lose. You can't run scenarios any other way. It was simply a matter of time and cost - massive, and horrifying as that was. God's big battalions for the Pacific was the US' production success - one of the great achievements of the century, and the US personnel under arms and devoted to the war effort.

Personally I find history interesting when I test what I've learnt against new data, and basic logic ('What if the reverse were true?' 'How would we react?') rather than trying to maintain a simple orthodoxy. One of the factors with the western horror of the Kamikaze attacks was that they were systematic, planned and premeditated. However suicidal defence and final defiant attacks have occurred by most societies at extreme moments in war. Would we have found allied defenders of our homelands doing the same thing as bizarre, or admirable sacrifice hoping to achieve a last minute miracle? (As many know, but often overlook it's importance, "Kamikaze" was a name chosen for some Special Attack as a deliberate tribute to the 'Divine Wind' that did save Japan many centuries before.)

Having recently been involved in editing a book on the Kamikaze and related aircraft (Japanese Special Attack Aircraft & Flying Bombs by Ryusuke Ishiguro & Tadeusz Januszewski*), which contains a good deal which covers the background and causes of such a bizarre programme, it's a lot stranger than the normal appreciation of it. And disquieting too. I'm glad not to have ended up in a society that is militaristic, and so perverted that such suicidal sacrifice was an almost inevitable outcome. But for the grace of birthplace and time...

Incidentally, did you know that the ship most frequently hit by the Kamikaze was not in the USN? You may know that the British armoured carriers withstood Kamikaze attacks ('Sweepers, man your brooms') much better than the lighter US carriers - but the attacks on those carries actually malformed the hulls so badly that they were not worth refitting and were thus scrapped, postwar, much earlier than might otherwise have been expected. There's always more to discover.

Regards,

(*Book details. http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/books.php?book_id=39 )

Actually, the movie 1941 did indeed hit one point of having a sub off the coast. Although it was U-boats and on the East coast it did happen. That in my book is too close, Pearl Harbor sure did seem close too.

[whistlingdeath77]

Actually I've read at least one account that claimed the Japanese were inspired by the damage done by a crippled F4F that did just that. Had it been a developed idea before that, the attack on Pearl might have been even worse.

I agree there were certainly 'spur of the moment' precedents by Allied airmen. However, like most western contemporary and later reporting of Japanese motivations, I'd be very careful of taking them as sound. Even today there are many myths continually perpetrated. Whatever the initial inspiration for Kamikaze concepts, it needed Japanese military champions and a perverted social and military culture for it to develop as it did.

There's no reason to see any Kamikaze attacks by Japanese airmen on December 7th. It was a completely different scenario. (Also, as we all know the decisive factor at Pearl was the absence of the carriers in port.)

Regards,

yeah, real easy to attack a sleeping giant. Just like sucker punching somebody

[k5083]

In a loose sense, the Kamikaze concept was extended even to capital ships. In the last battles of the Pacific war, entire task forces were sent out to battle with fuel for a one-way trip only.

The "sleeping giant" was really an embargoing giant, a threatening giant, a provoking-war-in-every-way-it-could-think-of giant, a giant who knew a punch of some kind was coming. But unfortunately, a very overconfident giant.

August

[muddyboots]

yeah, real easy to attack a sleeping giant. Just like sucker punching somebody

we do the same thing when we attack. Ask Iraq or Afghanistan.

[mustangdriver]

Before this gets too silly and we start comparing the US to WWII Japanese lets take a look at it. While the US may not be any where near perfect, when we go to war it is to protect our selves or to fight against those who are trying to bully others. We try to defend those who may not be able to defend themselves. Whether you like this current conflict or not, we didn't start it. I was working in a ramp control tower in Pittsburgh on the morning of 9/11 and was evacuated due to flight 93. I was at Ground Zero just days after the attack. I know how I feel about what I saw. Despite what the modern media says I should feel. I am not a political person, and don't judge based on politics. I know that I never want to feel that way again.
As For WWII Japanese, really? People confuse the word respect. They say, "Well you have to respect the Japanese for this or that". Respect in my book is earned and not given. And they are no where near it. My Great uncle was a death march survivor. My cousin bought a japanese car, and my great uncle would not allow him to park it in his drive way. He told stories of just how he was treated. He was even on War Stories with Oliver North. People want to clean up the war and move onto forgiving because it is comfortable. but it shouldn't be comfortable. A recent movie came out about a German who found himself trying to save the lives of 400 Chinese during the Rape of China. Japan banned the movie. I wonder why?
While the US is not perfect, we try to do good. Not just for ourselves, but for the rest of the world. I ask you what good came from the millions murdered by the Japanese in China?

And PS I drive an American made car. Why you ask. Because my dad is a Pittsburgh Steelworker. Yes they do still exist. His company produces metal that is purchased by American auto companies.

[muddyboots]

my point was simply that it isn't fair to excroriate the Japanese for their sneak attack and applaud us for using sound tactics. It was sound military tactics (although in the scope of a larger strategic failure) that we use and will continue to use. It is stupid to give away the advantage of surprise. Not saying it was right or that there is any comparison between the US and WWII era Japan. Just that it's silly on its face to hate Japan for a sneak attack when we would do the same thing AND DO.

[mustangdriver]

Hey Muddy, I wasn't talking to any one person, I just think there is a difference that is all. Sure we have sneak attacks. It is a sound tactic just as you say. But we are at war with them when we do it. We were not at war with Japan when they attacked Pearl, and on top of that were giving us friendship medals for working toward peace.

[shrike]

Hey Muddy, I wasn't talking to any one person, I just think there is a difference that is all. Sure we have sneak attacks. It is a sound tactic just as you say. But we are at war with them when we do it. We were not at war with Japan when they attacked Pearl, and on top of that were giving us friendship medals for working toward peace.

To be fair, the 'not being at war' was a matter of time zones and a low-level diplomats screw-up. The Declaration of War was supposed to be presented through proper channels about 5 minutes before the attack began. Not enough time to react, but enough to satisfy the diplomatic niceties.