Of Moths...

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:11 pm

Well, to change the topic from the "late unpleasantness" to something on the brighter side...

I had a really fun day on Saturday. Of course, I enjoy working with students, and had a good flight in the morning in the ever fabulous Skyhawk... ok, so it's just a 172, but it has the same name as CF's "Scooter" :wink:

.

Ended up also flying the J3C-65 Cub for two flights with potential students - and that is ALWAYS fun.

But, the icing on the cake was that I got to fly in a real Tiger Moth in the evening! Here's my quickie PIREP...

First off, I should've gotten a better briefing, but that was my fault, not the owners'. Basically, though, we climb out at 70 and do not go below 60-70 in any turn. The climbout was decent, probably a mite faster than the Cub, and we headed north towards Boerne Lake. The plane feels powerful (ok, so that's relative) and I know we were keeping the throttle several notches back from full on the R.P.M. gauge. The plane will easily do 100 mph once you level out. Did some shallow turns, a few mild wingovers (not more than 30 in pitch or 60 in bank) and some stalls - which were straight forward and docile, followed by a few more steep turns. I was cold (yeah, I'm a Texan...) by this time, and despite having my A-2 on and helmet, I did not wear the goggles I should have worn and was ready to return to base. I tried not to sound TOO eager about that. I just wished I'd dressed a bit more appropriately. It was during that part of the flight that I finally figured out the other reason for my weird feelings up to that point. It finally dawned on my that even though I was keeping the rudder straight, I felt odd because I was having to use a lot of LEFT rudder. DUH! The plane has the counter-clockwise turning British engine and once I figured that out, it all became more clear. About that time, we entered the pattern, and the owner landed it two or three times, which was fun to watch, though I felt a bit helpless. Then he asked if I wanted to try... Well, that got my attention, and I said I would like to, if he was sure he didn't mind... :shock:

I flew the pattern and attempted a wheel landing first. He said that he thought it would be easier to three point it, but also said that I could try either one. I remembered when someone told me the same thing about the Cessna 170, and I had far more trouble with my initial 3 points than with the wheeler, and I figured if I messed up, it would leave me more margin to go around. I bounced slightly on the attempt, but got it solidly on the ground with minimal issues, and he had me power out and said I could do one more! Both times he said my airspeeds were good on base and final - I think I was flying 90-100ish on base and and 80-90 on final, losing a lot of energy just before the flare. Did a three point on the last landing, and I don't think I even bounced. He said to bring it to a full stop, which we did, and then taxied back to parking. What a blast!

I apologize for the mobile phone pictures, but it's my only camera currently.

Ryan

Tiger Tim · **Posted:** Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:26 pm

Looks like you had a fun evening! Pretty Moth too, from what I can see. Recent restoration?

-Tim

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:31 pm

Tiger Tim wrote:

Recent restoration?

I don't know any details on that.

Ryan

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:11 am

Nice post, Ryan!

RyanShort1 wrote:

... I flew the pattern and attempted a wheel landing first. ...

When the Tiger was a cub, its pilots wouldn't know what a 'wheel landing' was - there were only three point landings, and General Duties pilots who were expected to fly anything to those standards, from the all grass, into-wind airfields.

(There weren't any tarmac runways, automatic transmissions, fast food or Twitter, either...)

Regards, the mildly envious James,

Dragonflydh90 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:08 am

If you get the opportunity again try 70MPH and 60-65MPH on short finals, 80-90 is way, way to fast even if bleeding it off in the round out.

100MPH is pretty fast for a Tiger must be a very nicely rigged one with a pretty good prop combination, 90MPH is about the norm.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:12 am

Dragonflydh90 wrote:

If you get the opportunity again try 70MPH and 60-65MPH on short finals, 80-90 is way, way to fast even if bleeding it off in the round out.

100MPH is pretty fast for a Tiger must be a very nicely rigged one with a pretty good prop combination, 90MPH is about the norm.

It's probably closer to what you say there. Those were my quickie notes from two days ago. I know I wasn't looking at the airspeed indicator past about the mid-point of the final.

Ryan

Dragonflydh90 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:57 pm

If you are ever in New Zealand for a vacation get in touch and you can get more formal introduction with the Tiger and maybe a few other more unusual machines.

All the best

Ryan - New Zealand

Andy in West Oz · **Posted:** Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:12 am

Magic photos, Ryan. Still smile at my one and only Tiger flight back in 2001.

Chris · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:17 am

ya gotta get down to Southern NZ to Mandeville where you have a choice of several Dehavilland products to ride in. Dragon, Domini, Foxmoth and Tigermoth. Had a great time there. BTW, don't forget all our Kiwi friends in your prayers with all the earthquake devastation. I was comparing pictures I took down there last April to what I've seen on the news. Gutwrenching.

Dave Hadfield · **Joined:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm **Posts:** 1672

There's nothing like a Moth...

But yes, 70 mph on climbout and approach. And if you can get 100 mph in cruise you've got an extremely fast Tiger. I usually see about 85. Sometimes a good deal less...

I see it's an "A" model; British, not Canadian. Modified to have brakes instead of just a tailskid?

Dave

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:06 pm

Dave Hadfield wrote:

There's nothing like a Moth...

But yes, 70 mph on climbout and approach. And if you can get 100 mph in cruise you've got an extremely fast Tiger. I usually see about 85. Sometimes a good deal less...

I see it's an "A" model; British, not Canadian. Modified to have brakes instead of just a tailskid?

Dave

I think he said it has Cub brakes - not very effective, but good enough. I didn't have brakes in the front.
And I'd LOVE to visit New Zealand. I have some good friends who used to live there who really like it. I wish I could go down and help with the recovery efforts, but I'm afraid the plane tickets and hotel stays would bankrupt me, not to mention losing time off work and impeding student's progress.

Ryan

Kyleb · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:14 pm

Ryan (and anyone else with Moth experience)...

Is it just me, or does the Moth require a lot of rudder work in the air? In my opportunity to fly one, I couldn't keep the thing pointed in the right direction to save my life. It probably looked like one of those flying farmer acts where the airplane is flying sideways most of the time!

Embarassing really.

Dragonflydh90 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:37 pm

The Tiger has a small spring attached to the right hand rudder bar that provides an adjustable ammount of balancing pressure (via turnbuckle) that can be used as a sort of "trim", however some Tigers have this removed, personally I usually slacken it off a little as I prefer to have less pressure on the bar (I do a lot of aerobatics and like a more direct feel).

The Tiger is fairly directionally neutral and without feet on the pedals, when displaced, will tend to wander of in the new yaw direction.
I tend to explain to people that a balancing pressure is required on the rudder pedals most of the time, it isnt a concious effort but with approximately equal pressure on the bar (at cruise) the Tiger will track nicely, staright and in balance.
By doing this it allows you to "feel" the aircraft better, react to small variations in yaw, and provide a perfect balancing force whilst rolling.

Rudder required whilst rolling is a squeeze not a definite push and relates pretty directly to the rate at which you are rolling (force wise), roll slowly and almost no rudder is required (little squeeze), roll fast and more required (bigger squeeze).

Hope that makes some sense, Dave might have something to add here.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:36 pm

Ryan, I have very little Tiger Moth experience, as a matter of fact it is one landing, at Duxford.
But it seems to me that 90 mph is way too fast, which if I am correct is why you may have had trouble with trying a wheel landing.
If I am correct, the 3 pt. landings are the norm for the RAF, just as they were for the U S back in the WW II days.

What was the stall speed, just a guess but I'd say not over 45 mph, so I don't think you need to add 35 or 40 mph to that for approach speed. I may be way off on this, and it was only from one flight over 10 years ago.

I was at Duxford, hoped to fly the Spitfire, but got weathered out. Then I got a chance at the Tiger Moth and as I waited a couple of hours for my turn, I watched the pilot do his rides. It took off so quickly that it didn't seem much of a problem. For landings they seem to come in fairly slow and all landings were 3 point. So when I flew and we came back in the pilot told me to go ahead and do the landing. We were on grass, and the wind had died down, so I just flew down near the runway, then closed the throttle and just held it off nose high till it stalled and set down with no fuss. It seemed pretty easy to me, but I do remember being cold. It was a fine plane, and did have good power compared to something like a Cub. The Tiger is also really good looking. We did not get to do any acro since there had been an accident in Australia, I think, and there was some restriction on acro.

And this plane trained many of the RAF top pilots.

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:41 pm

very cool

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