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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Just thinking hypothetically. I wonder what would have happened if the RAF had just bought American and used the B17 and B24 at night over Europe instead of the Lancs, Halifaxes and Stirlings. Having read quite a few night fighter accounts, it certainly didn't seem to take many hits to bring the British heavies down, especially the lumbering Stirling. I'm sure with the heavy armament of the B17 and it's ability to take a phenomenal amount of damage there would have been a lot more young RAF men would have survived to celebrate VE day.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Off the top of my head didn't a Lancaster carry a heavier load (over a comparative route) than a B-17 or B-24? I'm not sure on that, but if so would that not mean that the RAF would have needed more aircraft to deliver the same tonnage and thus had more losses? Also, since the US types weren't locally produced that also would have meant bringing more supplies/spares etc. over, and thus more losses in marine crews due to U-boats etc.

On the other hand, I bet the '17/24 carried more than a Stirling.

Although I always thought that the B-17 & 24 looked very nice in RAF/Coastal Command camo though.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:18 pm 
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And neither the B-17 or B-24 could even think about lifting Barnes Wallis' ten tonners either weight wise or dimensionally, which had a significant impact on V-1 launch sites and the German/French canals or sub pens and certainly wouldn't have been up to the dams raid as done by 617 Sqn. in their Lancs.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Rough bombload figures for RAF Heavies:
Stirling: 14,000 lbs internal (reducing to 3,500lbs at max range)
Halifax: 13,000 lbs internal
Lancaster: 14,000 lbs internal (22,000 lbs with modification)

Comparing with the USAAF Heavies:
B-17: 8,000 lbs internal (reducing to 4,500 lbs at max range)
B-24: 8,000 lbs internal (reducing to 2,700 lbs at max range)

Figures from Wikipedia, so will have to check accuracy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Your point about airframe damage is well taken.
Reading accounts of RAF missions, it seems they were easily brought down, but I'd like so see some hard evidence...

Broadly on the same point, a couple of years ago I asked a similar question on the FlyPast forum about whether night raids really gave the crews more protection. As I understand it, that was the reason for night raids, to limit aircraft exposure to defenses.

Oddly, I got no real response. It seems no one have ever crunched the numbers.

One point to consider is that by the nature of night flying, the RAF flew loose formations...and sometimes it seems no formations at all...seemingly making their bombers vunerable to German night fighters, whereas in the daylight raids by the 8th & 15th AF the formations provided at least some protection from fighters.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:36 pm 
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BOy that must have been terrifying. Flying in the dark, unable to see anything, wiating for shells from some nightfighter to come slamming into you any second. Real pressure imo.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:53 pm 
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I think you might be understimating the Halifax (particularly if radial engined) and the Lancaster.
By all accounts they were good to fly, tough and developed for the specialist job of night bombing.
They were also relatively simple, made at home and hence more affordable for the UK
The gunners role as an observer was critical, spotting enemy planes and initiating evasive action (corkscrew etc)
So the increased fire power of the US planes might not have much of a benefit though the ball turret would have useful for observing nightfighters moving into position to use upward firing cannons, a source of late war losses.
I don't see too many clear advantages in using the US planes but I might be biased.
Growing up in Australia the Lancaster in particular is part of WW11 mythology as many Austalians (and other Commonwealth nations) fought in them, with horrendous loss statistics.
We used to have a Lancaster (ex French) outdoor at the Perth airport, now at the Bullcreek Museum and the sight of it was an important part of any childhood trip to the airport.
A link to the history of the plane follows:

http://www.raafawa.org.au/wa/museum/lanc/history.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:59 pm 
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The RAF did fly some B-17Ds on daylight bombing missions, they didn't work very well. And remember that the RAF was flying night missions well before there were any B-17Es or B-24Ds available. Some of the first B-24s were bought by the British and used as long-range transports, called LB-30s. Combat-ready B-24s came later... even then the RAF used them for long-range anti-submarine work.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Lots of elements to an interesting question.

The short answer is 'no'! :wink:

Anecdotal 'toughness' of aircraft isn't a reliable measure, and the night attacks on bombers were completely different to the day (heavier armed twins, for the most part, with lined-up 'slow' attacks, rather than formation high speed slashing attacks by less heavily armed longer range-firing single seaters in daylight). The Night Fighter Luftwaffe would've had the same effect on any other multi-engine type; whatever the armament (with one exception) as they aimed to get in close and hit hard at night, and often were able to do so; whereas in daylight they had to stand off. It wasn't the number or calibre of the guns that was decisive, it was how early the bomber crew (gunners) could spot the attacking fighter at night that counted.

The exception would be the excellent Sperry Ball turret, which could easily have been fitted to the RAF's heavies and would've provided observation in a quadrant that the RAF didn't realise was crucial. The RAF's early ventral turrets were all dogs, and were ditched, later replaced by H2S scanners.

Some items-
- The RAF did the (early) B-17 in daylight, and it failed, and used them at night (100 Group Special Ops) but decided it was an inadequate bomber.

- They also used the B-24, and I presume they didn't want it for night bombing because it was used in less primary roles; the Far East and Coastal Command - in daylight for the most part.

- The Stirling was the only RAF heavy with a two pilot crew; the Lanc and Halifax were one pilot aircraft. Think about the relative potential effects. The Stirling's weakness wasn't that it wasn't tough, but that it had an inadequate ceiling, so suffered a greater proportion of the attacks and flack. Of the five types, the Stirling was by far the most manoeuvrable.

For John B-
- The RAF did NOT fly 'loose formation' at night, but flew in 'the bomber stream' which was like a more packed version of the modern airline corridor, with the objective of enough bombers overwhelming the defences and the majority getting through unharmed. With the use of Window initially, that worked very well, and would not be a daytime option.

- The RAF tried multi-turret day bombing in 1939-40, and switched to night because the day campaign with the .303 armed turrets was simply not sustainable, as had been thought by bomber-advocates pre-war. The USAAF persisted and made it work, to a degree.

The question presumes that one (the US day bomber raids) was 'better' or more efficient or effective than the other (the RAF's night campaign).

Or that some (our) aircraft were tougher than theirs. I'm not sure that these presumptions can be proven beyond a national bias. The only concrete example of significant design weakness was the Liberator's ditching and other vulnerabilities, and the Stirling's over-complex and weak undercarriage.

The 24 hour campaign had a major effect on the Axis ability to wage war; however it was an expensive way of doing so, and the bomber barons objective was a morale collapse of the Axis and that they would sue for peace. (Certainly that was the pre-US entry Allied doctrine.) That didn't happen (which we know with hindsight, but we must remember that they were expecting it to happen 'tomorrow' up until mid-'45) and on that level the campaign was a failure. For comparison, the USAAF's night firebombing campaigned also heavily affected the Japanese ability to wage war, but was very expensive in production, cash, training and infrastructure and lives, also also was not itself the thing that made the Japanese sue for peace.

Yes, interesting question....

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:57 pm 
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James, I used the term "loose formation" in an attempt to describe the bomber stream. Your analogy of modern air corridors is a very good one.

My point was the RAF bombers did not have the protection of a dense group bristling with defensive guns.

James, as a well-regarded author and expert in RAF operations, what's your considered opinion..did operating at night protect RAF heavies to a greater degree than during daylight operations?

I agree, the question of survivabilty is a difficult one to access.
Nationalism aside, perhaps the best way to answer the question is "What aircraft wouldn't I want to serve a tour in?" :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:26 am 
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The B17 is an icon in the USA, the Liberator only slightly behind, their fame mainly gained as day bombers.
The Lancaster is an equal icon in the UK/Commonwealth. again with the more versatile Halifax only slightly behind, their fame mainly gained as night bombers.

My reverse question to Mossie and others is - what advantages would the B17 or Liberator have over the British planes in the night bombing role? What would have made them better in practicality, technology or performance terms?
I have never seen the British planes descibed in negative terms and every possible advantage for the US ones seems to have a negative trade off, eg their greater weight of defensive weapons means less bomb load, more crew men to lose in a loss etc.

It seems that the greatest loss rates in the British bombers were the Stirling and the Merlin engined Halifaxes with the lowest operational ceilings. Another feature of the loss rate was that while the least experienced crew suffered the most, experience and expertise didn't seem to be a guarantee of survival as loss rates of 5% to 10%+ (from memory) on some missions claimed crews from across the board. More escaped from the Halifax than the smaller hatched Lancaster.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:07 am 
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Briefly - as it's been a long day...
JohnB wrote:
James, I used the term "loose formation" in an attempt to describe the bomber stream. Your analogy of modern air corridors is a very good one.

Fair enough! A completely mixed-up discussion on Key originated in someone thinking there 'must've been some formation', so I was trying to be clear on that.
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James, as a well-regarded author and expert in RAF operations, what's your considered opinion..did operating at night protect RAF heavies to a greater degree than during daylight operations?

Heh, I'm no 'expert', just a learner. The short and partial answer (IMHO) is 'yes' because the RAF switched from daylight ops in 1940 with Wellingtons (the heavy of the day) because the losses were unsustainable by day at that stage, but they were very hard for the Germans to bring down at night at that stage.

See the first para here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_We ... al_history

But there's a lot more to it - development from 1940 - 1945 of defensive and offensive tactics, early Electronic Warfare, actually hitting the target and hard enough, and lots more. More when I can, and I hope good insight from others, like Rick's comments.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:58 am 
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When discussing the losses of Bomber Command crews and aircraft you also have to factor in the weather. No accurate number has ever been put forth for how many RAF bombers were lost to thunderstorm activity, icing, and blind-flying mishaps while enroute to or from a target.

During the early part of the AAF bombing effort on Europe many in Britain tried to convince the U.S. to convert to night bombing. One of the RAF proposals was to discontinue the B-24 and B-17 and convert U.S. factories to Lancaster or Halifax production so as to have an appropriate machine for night bombing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:08 am 
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If any are interested in one facet of the Night bombing, pick up the book "Flying into the mouth of Hel l" by Laurie Woods DFC., who flew with the RAAF 460 Sqdn. I was surprised to find day missions were flown after D-Day, and actual low level missions flown with the Lanc.

Bill

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Second Air Force wrote:
One of the RAF proposals was to discontinue the B-24 and B-17 and convert U.S. factories to Lancaster or Halifax production so as to have an appropriate machine for night bombing.



That gets us back to the original question (sort of)...
Why would they think the Lanc and Halifaxes were intrinsically better suited for night operations compared to U.S. types?

I'm not aware of any aerodynamic differences at night, and the U.S. planes could have been modified with whatever equipment deemed necessary for extensive night flying.

And I won't make any old MG jokes about Lucas electrics in UK planes... :wink:

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