NASM's Helldiver on the move!

[mustangdriver]

Dave all I am saying is that they have issues with how stuff is stored there. I have seen first hand Swoose, and the condition it was in when brough to the museum. the nose had to be repaired because while in storage, it was hit by a truck. There is a good deal of corrosion in it, the interior was completely destroyed. I am not impressed over how Swoose was taken care of. The NMUSAF also had a Lysander on display that belonged to the NASM. The plane was restored by the NMUSAF, and then sent back to NASM. Once on a tour there I had a NASM tour guide explain to me how the NASM completely restored it. Truth of the matter is that it was simply put back together. No museum is perfect. I am not meaning to bash them just point out there is room for some improvement. As for being at Garber, yes I was there, and yes it was awesome.

[Brad]

The NMUSAF also had a Lysander on display that belonged to the NASM. The plane was restored by the NMUSAF, and then sent back to NASM. Once on a tour there I had a NASM tour guide explain to me how the NASM completely restored it. Truth of the matter is that it was simply put back together.

The truth of the matter, Chris, is that the Lysander was restored by Dwight Brooks, flown in the early 70s and then donated to the Smithsonian and they loaned it to the Air Force Museum. It went back and now hanging out at Dulles.

Edit to add: I just now realized that the proper spelling is Lysander. For all these years I thought it was LysLander. Not that I've needed to spell it all that often.

[mustangdriver]

Well Brad and maybe this is where the problem lies. As I was told it was restored at Dayton. Sometimes we think the folks at the museum know 100% what they are talking about, and they may not. NMUSAF included.

[Nathan]

Just an observation:

I find it interesting how all these national museums are always against one another. The CAF critics the USAFM, the USAFM critics the NASM, so on, and so on, etc. I know all museums seem to have their politics. I know most in warbirds have simular ideas and interest but in the end no one can ever seem to agree on anything. The warbird world is small as it is and will be ending soon enough.

[RMAllnutt]

When it comes to restoration the NASM is tops, when it comes to preserving items in storage, not so much.

Chris, you are wwwwayyyy out of line with this one. The only significant damage to NASM airframes occurred when they were forced to be stored outside, (ironically, this was due to them having lost their hangarage due to Air Force requirements). This also lead to the scrapping/loss of several airframes as NASM was ordered to leave the premises in a hurry. There was no where to store the larger aircraft inside when they moved out East. At least they were saved though. Most of them would have been scrapped in that era by other organizations, but NASM saved them! NASM are a world class organization, employing world class personnel and techniques. They are not perfect, but I consider them the world's gold standard in how to both preserve and restore historic air frames. They cannot store everything inside... no museum with a collection this size can... but they've had most of their collection inside for decades now, which is not true of the Air Force Museum (not that I am knocking them for this). I love the Air Force Museum, but one place where I do knock them is in continuing to scrap rare aircraft like the RF-84K, B-26K and others in recent years. To my knowledge at least, NASM has never scrapped airframes in the modern era.

Owen... as far as corrosion and other issues are concerned, paint hides a multitude of sins. Corrosion hides in joints as well as many other hard to reach places. Just because the Helldiver looked fine on the surface at Pensacola, and even disassembled, doesn't mean that it was corrosion free. Believe me, I have seen parts from other aircraft with original paint on which looked magnificent and ready to fly after a fresh coat of paint only to find they were horribly pitted with corrosion once the old paint was cleaned off in preparation for the re-paint. I'm not saying this is the case with the Helldiver, as I haven't seen it personally. I'm just saying that looks can be deceiving. This is in no way suggesting that the corrosion is due to poor handling at either NASM or Pensacola either. Rust never sleeps as they say, and old preservation techniques are no where near the state of the art today.

[Jack Cook]

Brad is correct. Dwight Brooks restored it from a basket case.
Brook's flew F-80s with the 51st FIW in Korea 1951.

[mustangdriver]

When it comes to restoration the NASM is tops, when it comes to preserving items in storage, not so much.

Chris, you are wwwwayyyy out of line with this one. The only significant damage to NASM airframes occurred when they were forced to be stored outside, (ironically, this was due to them having lost their hangarage due to Air Force requirements). This also lead to the scrapping/loss of several airframes as NASM was ordered to leave the premises in a hurry. There was no where to store the larger aircraft inside when they moved out East. At least they were saved though. Most of them would have been scrapped in that era by other organizations, but NASM saved them! NASM are a world class organization, employing world class personnel and techniques. They are not perfect, but I consider them the world's gold standard in how to both preserve and restore historic air frames. They cannot store everything inside... no museum with a collection this size can... but they've had most of their collection inside for decades now, which is not true of the Air Force Museum (not that I am knocking them for this). I love the Air Force Museum, but one place where I do knock them is in continuing to scrap rare aircraft like the RF-84K, B-26K and others in recent years. To my knowledge at least, NASM has never scrapped airframes in the modern era.

Owen... as far as corrosion and other issues are concerned, paint hides a multitude of sins. Corrosion hides in joints as well as many other hard to reach places. Just because the Helldiver looked fine on the surface at Pensacola, and even disassembled, doesn't mean that it was corrosion free. Believe me, I have seen parts from other aircraft with original paint on which looked magnificent and ready to fly after a fresh coat of paint only to find they were horribly pitted with corrosion once the old paint was cleaned off in preparation for the re-paint. I'm not saying this is the case with the Helldiver, as I haven't seen it personally. I'm just saying that looks can be deceiving. This is in no way suggesting that the corrosion is due to poor handling at either NASM or Pensacola either. Rust never sleeps as they say, and old preservation techniques are no where near the state of the art today.

Whne it comes to Swoose, sorry we will just have to agree to disagree. The NASM actually came under fire for leaving it and Enola Gay outdoors when there WAS room for them indoors. Also when swoose got hit by a truck, it is was in indoor storage. But once again, I love the NASM. I am not bashing them. When it comes to swoose, I think Mr. Kurtz deserves a ton of credit.

[old iron]

do you think he protesteth toomuch?

[mustangdriver]

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

[old iron]

Flickr photos of the Helldiver being moved into the Udvar Hazy restoration facility can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/albatrosdv/with/5205703670/.

[Garth]

The only significant damage to NASM airframes occurred when they were forced to be stored outside, (ironically, this was due to them having lost their hangarage due to Air Force requirements).

I've been a big supporter of NASM over the years, and still am of the museum (but not the current leadership, which I believe is too focused on building out revenue streams rather than focusing on the educational nature of their mission).

However, Swoose was damaged while indoors. As the docent who took me on one of the several Saturday tours of Garber that I went on in the 6 or 7 years before it closed to the public, they were moving some crates around on a forklift and one or more fell out, dishing in the port-side forward fuselage. This damage is readily apparent in the recent pictures take of her while in storage there.

Flak Bait continues to be damaged on a daily basis due to how they have her on display. With the possible exception of the P-80 and Me-262 (which are "touchable" by people with long arms who can stretch out a ways), I believe that Flak Bait is the only artifact on display at either of their museums (besides those intended to be touched, like the moon rock) that can be touched by the public. And she is touched, scratched, etc, with the damage to her original paint apparent and worsening. At one point during a previous discussion on the matter here I almost made a joke (and really, it was going to be meant as a joke, since I would NEVER actually do anything like this) that if anyone wanted to send me a $20 bill and a self-addressed, self-stamped envelope I'd be happy to send back paint chips from her.

What's really amusing (in a sad way) about Flak Bait is that NASM has been putting up protective plexiglas along the 2nd-floor balcony/walkway at Mall since the JN-4D in the "America by Air" exhibit was damaged by stupid kids dropping coins onto her from above. She's since been relocated to Dulles, where she sits at the Southern end of the main hangar disassembled. So at the moment the plexiglas is still in place to protect an artifact that is no longer there. I see absolutely no reason why Flak Bait couldn't be put completely behind plexiglas as well until she can be moved out to Dulles for restoration and reassembly.

Finally, in fairness, so far as I know every artifact that NASM has in its actual possession, with the exception of the C-130 out at Dulles, is indoors and protected from the elements and with the exception of the C-121 (which sat next to the C-130 until it was restored and moved into the Dulles museum recently) has been since "the Barn" (where Enterprise, the B-17 now in Savannah, the B-25, Sageburner, and a good number of other artifacts) and "Quonset Hut" (built specifically to house the SR-71A) were built out at Dulles 20-30 years ago. NMUSAF, OTOH, still had a dozen or so artifacts (including the C-141 Hanoi Taxi and the Migetman missile transporter) sitting outdoors at Dayton.

[Pat Carry]

I found out some information about the restoration of the Helldiver straight from a NASM employee. The engine is full of corrosion and will have to be torn down completely. There is some cleaning in the cockpit as well as in other areas of the airframe. No mention of any other corrosion problems. The only other restoration work taking place now is on the wing of the He 219. There is however talk of bringing additional aircraft from Garber to be displayed "as is" until such a time when they can be restored. That is something alot of us here on the WIX have been saying should be done for years!