Fragile But Agile - P-51K 44-12016

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Jim, very well put. As Lynn mentioned I don't think there is any animosity towards the owner -it is plain to see Dan has done the best he could with available evidence to present his 51 in good faith-kudos to him (and the team who produced the end result of course!), no one can deny it is a beauty :shock:

The thread is extremely interesting IMHO, and I believe it is not only me who is learning something, who knows someone may chime in with an answer or even hard evidence of what went on here. There are a few well informed Israeli historians about who have done work on identifying IAF Spits and also P-51s I believe, however I have no idea how to contact them so they can add something.

Peter A- I think you have worked for one or two of these historians concerning Spits????Any chance of getting them here??

Dave

T J Johansen · **Posted:** Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:33 pm

Jim Beasley wrote:

To make this personal, for all I know my Mustang really isn't 44-73029a. Some have written that Stephen Grey's "Miss Velma" is really that serial number, yet Miss Velma has a "6" series serial number attached to it. What is right? I dunno.

Well, I'd say you walked straight past the original fuselage from 44-73029 when you and your dad visited Pioneer Aero Service close to 20 years ago. As for the fuselage currently on "Bald Eagle" I have an idea, but not something I can prove 100%.

T J

Jim Beasley · **Posted:** Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:52 pm

That's funny, because the last time my Dad and I were at Chino together was when Bald Eagle was all apart at Bruce Goessling's hangar in 1980 and I was 13 years old. Sorry I missed that obvious object sitting in the scrapyard when I allegedly walked past it; maybe you should have pointed it out to me then rather than being snippy on the web 30 years later.

T J Johansen wrote:

Jim Beasley wrote:

To make this personal, for all I know my Mustang really isn't 44-73029a. Some have written that Stephen Grey's "Miss Velma" is really that serial number, yet Miss Velma has a "6" series serial number attached to it. What is right? I dunno.

Well, I'd say you walked straight past the original fuselage from 44-73029 when you and your dad visited Pioneer Aero Service close to 20 years ago. As for the fuselage currently on "Bald Eagle" I have an idea, but not something I can prove 100%.

T J

Steve · **Joined:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:35 pm **Posts:** 80

I don't understand this thread at all. If I have read the comments correctly everything that wasn't from the factory with it's original parts is suspect. This would include most restorations, data plate rebuilds and Cavalier mustangs. I would suggest not watching them fly because they aren't original.
You need to GET OVER IT enjoy what someone has taken the time and expense to put into the air for YOUR enjoyment.

Mr. Beasley is right you need to move on

Steve

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:11 pm

Steve wrote:

I don't understand this thread at all.

Obviously

No one is suggesting it isn't an original Mustang - what the discussion is about is the aircraft's origins, postwar movement and how it came to be where it is at now at this point in its lifetime. A lot of us have more of an historical interest than..'ohh look a Mustang' - history is more important than 'eye candy' instant gratification IMHO, especially when ( heaven forbid) the aircraft may not be around forever.
Many owner / operators feel the same way-and not only because it might add / or subtract from the value of their assets.
WIX appeals to a large cross section of people - this thread happens to appeal to those who have an interest in history and a little mystery, nowt wrong with that.

pstang · **Joined:** Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:23 pm **Posts:** 8

Hello Steve. I meant 0 disrespect with my post. I love polished Mustangs and period patina Mustangs. I spent many hours a week keeping one of the mentioned Mustangs shiny for it's previous owners. I think it looks bitchin. I was just thinking out loud that the current owner has a couple Mustangs with the old school patina and it would be neat to see them all like that. As far as airframe history, I really could care less. A Mustang is a Mustang. The first time I saw a Mustang at the age of nine, it's airframe history did not enter into mind. All I knew was this thing had a soul, which changed my life from that day foward. That's the power these things have. The only thing that's important is that there are people with the passion and skills to keep them flying. And in the process inspiring people about aviation, warbirds and the broad history they represent.

mivey · **Posted:** Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:31 pm

There is nothing better (at least for me) than the site, the sound, and the smell of a P-51. The owners of these planes spend a lot of money so I can still have that love affair.

I am not one on the history of the plane but rather the guy that appreciates that they are still flying. I am at the Reno Air Races and that is more prevelant than any other show in the world. These guys spend tons of money to put their planes on display and fly them in an environment that is like no other...and even if they win they don't make enough to cover their cost.

I say the more flying the better.

Now Mr. Beasley...when are you bringing Bald Eagle to Reno to run around the pylons?

T J Johansen · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:47 am

Jim Beasley wrote:

That's funny, because the last time my Dad and I were at Chino together was when Bald Eagle was all apart at Bruce Goessling's hangar in 1980 and I was 13 years old. Sorry I missed that obvious object sitting in the scrapyard when I allegedly walked past it; maybe you should have pointed it out to me then rather than being snippy on the web 30 years later.

Well, I guess that means your dad brought someone else over to our hangar as this was in the early 90s. One of the guys in the shop said that Jim Beasley was coming for a visit and we all expected the young guy who did accompany him to be his son, given that you had gotten "Frenesi" up and running at that time.This was not at Goessling's place but over on the other side of the field, a few rows from where Jack Croul has been having his latest P-51 put together in the last year. I did not go with Bret as he showed your dad and the other guy around, but waited to hear later if any comments were made about the fuselage sitting in the hangar. As none were mentioned I thought the subject had not been touched. at least I've pointed it out to you now, hopefully to be viewed as a bit of information, and not as being snippy on the web.

T J

Jim Beasley · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:14 am

My Dad hasn't been at Chino since 1983 so I have no idea who that was.

T J Johansen wrote:

Jim Beasley wrote:

That's funny, because the last time my Dad and I were at Chino together was when Bald Eagle was all apart at Bruce Goessling's hangar in 1980 and I was 13 years old. Sorry I missed that obvious object sitting in the scrapyard when I allegedly walked past it; maybe you should have pointed it out to me then rather than being snippy on the web 30 years later.

Well, I guess that means your dad brought someone else over to our hangar as this was in the early 90s. One of the guys in the shop said that Jim Beasley was coming for a visit and we all expected the young guy who did accompany him to be his son, given that you had gotten "Frenesi" up and running at that time.This was not at Goessling's place but over on the other side of the field, a few rows from where Jack Croul has been having his latest P-51 put together in the last year. I did not go with Bret as he showed your dad and the other guy around, but waited to hear later if any comments were made about the fuselage sitting in the hangar. As none were mentioned I thought the subject had not been touched. at least I've pointed it out to you now, hopefully to be viewed as a bit of information, and not as being snippy on the web.

T J

Jim Beasley · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:14 am

I'm thinking of PRS next year ....

Now Mr. Beasley...when are you bringing Bald Eagle to Reno to run around the pylons?

[/quote]

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Jim Beasley wrote:

I'm thinking of PRS next year ....

Now Mr. Beasley...when are you bringing Bald Eagle to Reno to run around the pylons?

I would love to see a Spit rounding the pylons.....hint....hint...

Pat · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:03 am

JDK wrote:

WARNING: This thread is now in the zone of rivet (date) counters...

Proceed with caution, and check your social skills remain enabled, or check them at the door.

Whoa, Hoss! Don't get the wrong idea...I was not bashing this restoration, it's gorgeous. I've installed a few Cherry Max's and Hi-Loks in vintage aircraft over the years; I was just wondering if they had even been invented in WWII. I'm the furthest thing from a rivet counter or paint scheme afficianado, however I do have an aversion to high temp white spray paint (only two or three members on this forum who know me will know what I'm referring to!)

-Pat

brian5592 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 5

I just found this discussion board, while searching for my fathers P-51
My father was Lt. Bert Lee, as painted on the restoration. We (my brother and I) were aware of this project, but only a few days ago saw a photo of the finished product. We were contacted over a year ago when someone found the original etchings from his name under the canopy.
My Dad did not name the plane, so "Fragile but Agile" came after him. He flew in the Pacific, P-47's first, then transitioned to the P-51 later.
He was also on the first B-17's to arrive durring the attack on Pearl Harbor, and was wounded durring the attack.
My father passed away a few years ago, and was honored with a Commemorative Airforce memorial service, with his ashes scattered over the pacific by my son from an AT-6.
My heart jumped when I saw the photo, and I truly hope I will get to see Fragile but Agile soon!
We have alot more info on my father and his time spent in the Pacific durring WWII if anyone is interested.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:05 pm

Hi Brian

Welcome to the addictive madness of WIX. Sorry to hear of your father's passing, such a pity he couldn't take a look at this P-51, I am sure he would have had a smile wider than the undercarriage!
Thanks for your input re this restoration, and please do post more about your father and if possible any photos of his wartime service - for those of us interested in the historic side of things that will be of huge interest :wink:

regards
Dave

brian5592 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 5

Will do Dave, thanks for the reply
I have some photos of him with the P-47, and the P-51.
And of course I grew up listening to all the stories of his time in the Pacific.
He actually had three kills, the third being a B-24/25/26 (I can't remember which) Landing gear was stuck up with a full bomb load, crew bailed out and and my Dad was ordered to shoot it down.
So there should be an American Flag under the two meatballs!
- one of his favorite stories.

Brian

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