"Is your oxygen cylinder turned on"

[Warbirdnerd]

I'm looking at a calendar picture of Hurricane AE977 and that statement is stenciled on the fuselage under the cockpit in rather large letters. Is this a stencil that was used by the RAF during the war or is it unique to this bird? Thanks In Adavance.

[mrhenniger]

I have seen that stenciling on the Vintage Wings of Canada Hurrican Mk IV.

Mike

[Randy Haskin]

I have seen that stenciling on the Vintage Wings of Canada Hurrican Mk IV.

Mike

Forgive the self-portrait.....G-HURI taken at Duxford in '07.

[RMAllnutt]

Changing the thread here slightly... when I was going through a briefing on the F-15E oxygen system, prior to taking a flight out of Elmendorf AFB back in 2006, I was told about a fatal incident in an F-16 flight experience ride, where the back seater accidentally turned off his oxygen. He panicked, and rather than simply pull off his oxygen mask to sort things out, he tried to find the knob to turn his oxygen back on... didn't do it in time, and died without the pilot being able to do anything to help. The guy in the back was an experienced, Air Force crew chief, or so I was told. I always wondered whether the guys were just winding me up, or whether it was a true story. Anyone know?

It would make sense that the Hurricane would have a statement to that effect on the cockpit exterior by the way, as there were a number of cases during the war (and subsequently) where pilots were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes, passed out and died in the subsequent crashes.

Cheers,
Richard

[Bill Greenwood]

In reading lots of stories of wartime Hurricane pilots, plus flying with some and talking to some civilian Hurri pilots, I have never heard or read of any big problem of CO poisoning in a Hurricane.

It's likely that the turn on valve was hard or impossible to reach in the air, thus the bottle needs to be on at start up. If it is like a Spitfire, there is or was a knob on the dash that turns on that part of the system if needed at altitude. There's no particular caution in the Pilot Notes for CO danger or for O2 use for either plane.

[mlenoch]

Hacker:
Your pix does not do you justice!
VL

[Randy Haskin]

Changing the thread here slightly... when I was going through a briefing on the F-15E oxygen system, prior to taking a flight out of Elmendorf AFB back in 2006, I was told about a fatal incident in an F-16 flight experience ride, where the back seater accidentally turned off his oxygen. He panicked, and rather than simply pull off his oxygen mask to sort things out, he tried to find the knob to turn his oxygen back on... didn't do it in time, and died without the pilot being able to do anything to help. The guy in the back was an experienced, Air Force crew chief, or so I was told. I always wondered whether the guys were just winding me up, or whether it was a true story. Anyone know?

That is, indeed, a true story. Happened at Luke AFB circa '05.

Hacker:
Your pix does not do you justice!
VL

Dare I even ask 'in what way'?

[mlenoch]

I guess I have to reply...........

You're a lot slimmer & taller in real life.

VL

[JDK]

It would make sense that the Hurricane would have a statement to that effect on the cockpit exterior by the way, as there were a number of cases during the war (and subsequently) where pilots were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes, passed out and died in the subsequent crashes.

I haven't been able to find a reference on a quick look, but the issue was hypoxia, not carbon monoxide. IIRC, and the where and when is debatable, but I'm going to say Battle of Britain period, a number of Hurricanes and pilots were lost on rapid intercept scrambles - going from take off to oxygen-requiring height in as short time as possible, and under the stress of the scramble, turning on the oxygen was overlooked.

The stencil was common - perhaps mandated - for a brief wartime period, but was not seen commonly on Hurricanes; except (again I'm open to correction) in the latter period of the type's use as an interceptor. It was not seen pre-war, or Battle of France period, so post May 1940?

Carbon monoxide was a problem on some other types, particularly the Typhoon, where pilots were advised (ordered?) to wear a mask with oxygen on at all times.

Which leads to a modern warning. The Aircraft Restoration Co undertook some detailed carbon monoxide sampling on Spitfires a few years ago, and were very surprised (and concerned) to discover that pilots could easily ingest more than the recommended safe minimum of carbon monoxide when taxiing with the canopy open! Certain other conditions, such as IIRC direction of the breeze or wind while doing so or similar were a factor, but everyone had assumed the carbon monoxide risk was at higher power (flight) with the canopy closed. The degree of incapacitation was not great, but would be a factor in an accident investigation - one that you'd rather not see. IIRC ARC circulated those details among the type operators, but it can't hurt for a new mention.

Regards,

[Bill Greenwood]

I usually had an simple aftermarket CO detector in my cockpit, just a little chemical sensitive button on a plastic card. I never saw it turn dark to indicate CO while in flight with the canopy closed. The only time I saw it happen was sitting at runup with the canopy open and being behind and downwind of another plane being run up, especailly something like a T-28 or Skyraider. Maybe it just didn't like that T-28 sound.

While it may be best to take off and land with the canopy open as in wartime, I rarely did since mine did not open and close as easily as a single seater. Once I had some type of minor problem and went to land with the canopy open. It was windyer and heat seemed to come up and back from the firewall. I only went to FLD from Osh so don't recall any CO problem. Of course I carry Oxygen and use it for any sustained flight over 12,000 or anything above 15,000.

I recall some findings of CO in other planes, for instance a Firefly, but I never read or heard or noticed anything like that in a Spitfire. The exhaust stacks point out to the sides, but in slow flight the exhaust pattern on the fuselage is well below the cockpit. Seems the same on a Mustang.

[JDK]

Extract from the draft of an article I wrote on Historic Flying Ltd & The Aircraft Restoration Co, based on an interview with John Romain and published in Warbird Digest No 4, Summer 2005.

There was a clear need from the engineering point of view, and also from the pilot and operations point of view, for accurate real-time data throughout the aircraft's flight.
...
Pi Research in Cambridge, a world leading company in digital data acquisition developed a compact flight data recorder system for the Spitfire, as a type, in collaboration with HFL. Griffon powered Spitfire Mk.XIV RN201 was the first aircraft fitted with the system, with the 'black boxes' located in the rear fuselage.

... and finally the prototype version was fitted with a Carbon Dioxide (CO2) sensor to monitor cabin air quality, with some very interesting results.

The pilots of the Griffon powered Spitfires had occasionally complaining of feeling nauseous, and there had been concerns over fumes in the cockpit since the first days of Spitfire operations back in the 1930s. The dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning are well known, but the operating strategies and build quality of the aircraft were essentially the same as they always had been, and those operating methods had been developed empirically to general satisfaction. Was there new evidence to be found? John takes up the story: "As is normal we were taxiing the aircraft out, and ground running with the canopy open to avoid capturing any fumes in the cockpit. In flight, the oxygen mask would be worn and in use, but it wasn't regarded as necessary on the ground, the open flow of air having always been regarded as good enough. But the measurement of the CO2 in the new equipment installed in RN201 was throwing up some worrying part per million readings. Obviously we started looking a lot harder at the operation of the machine. On the ground we found that the exhaust gasses were being blown into the cockpit when taxing downwind - the local airflow blowing the gas back into the open cockpit. For instance, in a five minute taxi, the carbon monoxide intake by the pilot was way over the parts per million that would be allowable for a maximum daily dose. Naturally this information and recommended procedures were shared within the industry." As they say, it's never too late to learn.