USS Olympia and matter of longterm survival of air artifacts

[eze240]

The Olympia's case is a very sad story....... I'm interested in a number of different things- aviation,railroad,ships, old machinery,etc...
So, on some of the other discussion forums, there have been some interesting things said.
Of course, this is third or fourth hand info,etc,etc.
Supposedly the Olympia had a substantial trust fund or endowment ( more than 10 million), that covered the yearly costs and maintenance.
Over the last 10+ years the board in charge have started paying themselves very high salaries and been deferring maintenance work,etc.
Now the money is gone, or at least the trust is in bad shape.....
So, suddenly the ship is about to sink, they can't fix her,etc,etc.....And of course the "solution" is to sink her.....
A previous poster mentioned that the fittings,etc could be sold and that perhaps there's more to this situation.....
So, my question is: If the ship goes, does the park she's docked at become available to be sold? That would be plenty of motivation for "profit hungry" developers- They'd make millions.....
In any case, this is an example of how, no matter what you do, our preserved history is always only a step away from destruction....

BTW, Has anyone heard the story of USS Cabot? she was the only surviving CVL (light carrier) from WW 2. She was preserved in New Orleans
in the 1990's.....mismanaged,etc.......Scrapped in 2002.

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

Yes the Cabot was a tragic story. The Olympia is docked at public wharf . The USS Becuna is docked inboard her. The area is in the public trust and not available for private development anymore.

[rreis]

How many warbirds could you preserve with the money of one dreadnought? (a new dressing for an old question)

[Garth]

How many warbirds could you preserve with the money of one dreadnought? (a new dressing for an old question)

I think that's asking the wrong question.

The right ones would be where is the funding available, and how can they lay hands on it.

There's definitely money out there. For example, there was talk of the JFK Presidential Library (the not-for-profit side of the operation, not the NARA one) being given CV-67, and parking her next to the library up in Boston/Dorchester.

Raising the millions of dollars necessary to dredge the harbor out in that area and building piers etc to move her in, and then caring for her (IIRC the USN wanted $20 million in the bank to give Saratoga to that group in Quonset RI) wasn't the issue. It was the environmental impact of stirring up all the cr*p that's sitting on the bottom.

For all the uniqueness inherent within her, the ONE thing that the USS Olympia truly represents is the movement of the US onto the world stage as a major power. Linked to this is both the philosophy of Theodore Roosevelt AND the adoption by the USN of the principles of Mahan.

It does seem pretty ridiculous that the ship is in Philly ... no wonder she's languishing. Better candidates would be New York City (with Intrepid ... maybe even maintaining her in a condition where she could be towed over to Oyster Bay for TR-related events) or Annapolis MD (where a never-ending stream of voluntold Midshipmen could contribute labor to her upkeep).

Or perhaps even Norfolk, next to Wisky in a symbolic alpha/omega presentation similar to Missouri and Arizona at Pearl.

[SaxMan]

Some more ships that got away:

USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) survived into the early 70s, being used as a test hulk. By that time, it was the only Essex class carrier that saw World War II service still in its original World War II configuration. USS Franklin was scrapped in the 60s, all the rest of the WWII Essex class ships got the SCB-27 or SCB-125 renovations.

I can think of a couple of Fletcher-class destroyers that should have been saved, among them: Heerman (DD-532), the only Taffy 3 destroyer to survive the Battle Off Samar, and Nicholas (DD-449), which capped an illustrious wartime career by escorting Missouri into Tokyo Bay.

and, of course, the whole Cabot fiasco. The only CVL to survive, and the only CV (at that time) to still retain its original flight deck. Outside of the island structure, the ship was basically unchanged since World War II. That one still burns me up. Everyone knew better than to scrap the ship, yet it still happened.

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

One wy or another its all about Dollars. from either side , costs or the profit the scrap will bring. Right now the Olympia is not hurting anyone and the rush to destroy her seems odd. More like a battle of egos. Something we have never seen with the Navy ..Right !

[APG85]

USS DAY Destroyer Escort DE-225 - Rudderow Class. Saw a lot of action in the Pacific during WWII. Mothballed after the war and sunk as a target off of San Diego in 69...like a lot of others it would be a neat treasure today. Unfortunately the upkeep of these vassals in a salt water environment is almost prohibitively expensive vs. the tourist draw and donations they bring in...
Olympia is another story in itself and would be a crime if she is destroyed/sunk....

[Mark_Pilkington]

.
Seems from the information below from the museum's own website that they have been told for 12 years that the ship needs to be drydocked and repaired but they dont have the $10M to do so. (Its only been in their hands for 14 years!)

In addition they think they need another $10M in the bank to keep on maintaining it ongoing.

AND because they have developed a stategic plan to redevelop the museum itself that will cost money, they dont think they raise money for the Olympia AND their museum redevelopment.

They took over ownership of the Olympia in 1996 (14 years ago) from the Cruiser Olympia Association - no details as to why etc?

Seems the "simple" solution for the Independance Seaport is to offer it to other Naval Maritime Museums on a "free to good home" in the hope that some other group has the resources and focus to look after it.

ISM has attempted to seek another non-profit organization willing and able to assume ownership of the vessel and fulfill contractual obligations for the indefinite maintenance and preservation of the vessel. To date, ISM has been unable to identify a qualified organization which to transfer the Olympia.

I'm not sure if this means any other "good home" showing interest has to contract with ISM promising to indefinately maintain and preserve the vessel, seems a bit rich for an organisation that only took the ship over 14 years ago, and is now contemplating sinking it as a dive reef because they cant maintain it?, to set a high bar for others?

?? Its unclear if that means ISM already have contractual obligations from someone else (the Navy?) and that any other "good home" has to take over those obligations- ie is this a Naval version of the NMUSAF Conditional donations (indefinate loans) like the recent CAF P-82? and obviously is so? then why cant ISM simply return it to the Navy for the Navy to re-allocate, (or sink?).

Its hard to determine if this is a case of ISP holding a gun at the head of various governments etc by saying "Payup the funds for both our redevelopment AND the Olympia OR the Olympia gets it!" or an honest desperate "final solution" because the museum really is out of its depth?

Surely providing the Ship to any other city/museum willing to take it, even if they drybed it out of water, is better than sinking it as a reef?

Olympia is a National Historic Landmark, a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark, is on the National Register of Historic Places, and is part of the Save America’s Treasures program. - I would have thought some type of National heritage processes in government would be stepping in - especially if its actually a Navy asset on conditional donation?

As proposed by others, is it a case Pennsylvania being the wrong place in terms of tourism, naval yard access/support or historical relevence?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

http://www.phillyseaport.org/ships_olympia.shtml

Update on the Status of the Cruiser OLYMPIA

In February 2010, the Independence Seaport Museum (ISM) announced that the aging Spanish-American War Cruiser Olympia, a National Historic Landmark and one-of-a-kind former U.S. Navy vessel was in need of substantial and costly hull repairs to prevent her from sinking. Annual inspections by the Navy have highlighted several times over the past 12 years the ship’s deteriorating hull condition and the need for dry docking. The ship has not been dry docked in more than 65 years. According to an independent marine hull inspection and other inspections, the ship will sink in place within three years if no actions are taken. ISM has attempted to seek another non-profit organization willing and able to assume ownership of the vessel and fulfill contractual obligations for the indefinite maintenance and preservation of the vessel.

To date, ISM has been unable to identify a qualified organization which to transfer the Olympia. The Navy has advised ISM that they are willing to authorize ISM to responsibly dispose of the Olympia. ISM will cease public tours of the Olympia on November 22, 2010.

Restoration Efforts Past, Present and Future

ISM has spent in excess of $5.5 million on the maintenance, repair, preservation, and restoration of Olympia since agreeing to take possession of her in 1996 from the Cruiser Olympia Association. Now, another $10 million is required to restore the hull and deck, including dredging at Penn’s Landing Marina and a safe tow to dry dock. An additional $10 million is required for an endowment to fund future maintenance and repairs or to fund a permanent berth in a cofferdam and some endowment for maintenance.

“The Independence Seaport Museum Board of Port Wardens is unanimous in its acknowledgement of Olympia’s rich and unique history and her importance as a naval treasure,” says Board Chairman Peter McCausland. “The Museum has been an outstanding steward for this magnificent naval ship and its related historical artifacts for many years,” McCausland says, “but is not able to raise the significant amount of money needed to dredge the Penn’s Landing Marina, transport Olympia to dry dock, and finance the repairs necessary to ensure she will remain afloat.”

For the last two years, the Museum has worked to secure funding for the preservation of Olympia, approaching the City of Philadelphia, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the Department of the U.S. Navy, the Federal government, and private funders – with no success. The Museum also conducted a feasibility study, which determined that it would be unable to raise the substantial funds needed for Olympia’s preservation at this time.

During its tenure as Olympia’s steward, the Seaport has worked tirelessly to preserve, repair, and maintain the ship. These efforts have included, amongst others, stability tests and floodable length studies with the U.S. Navy; an extensive hull condition survey; removing and disposing of 30 tons of asbestos; repairing bulkheads and doors; upgrading electrical and service water systems; constructing a replica wheelhouse to historic specifications, and restoring the bridge deck.

Over the last two years alone, the Seaport completed interim repairs to the steel plating at Olympia’s wind and water line, and is currently working to restore the integrity of her inner hull, as further protection against a catastrophic break in her outer hull.

The Seaport recently completed a strategic planning process, which outlines a new vision and direction for the Museum. Significant funding is needed to make that vision a reality, maintain the Museum’s financial stability, and keep this cultural institution relevant to the City of Philadelphia and the Museum’s visitors, which include residents, tourists, and tens of thousands of schoolchildren each year. “Regrettably, in the current economic climate, the Board of Port Wardens has concluded that it cannot raise the funding necessary to save Olympia while also financing the implementation of the Museum’s new strategic plan,” McCausland says.


Olympia’s Historical Significance

From the moment of her launching in 1892, Olympia was a rare treasure in the U.S. naval fleet, as no sister ships were ever built. She is the world’s oldest floating steel warship and the sole surviving naval ship of the Spanish-American War. Olympia served as Admiral Dewey’s flagship at the Battle of Manila Bay, which marked the U.S.’s emergence as a world naval power. Olympia’s last official naval mission was to carry the body of the Unknown Soldier from France to the United States in 1921. In addition to being a National Historic Landmark, Olympia is also a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark, on the National Register of Historic Places, and part of the Save America’s Treasures program.


The Olympia (C-6) is the oldest steel warship afloat in the world. Launched in San Francisco, CA, in 1892, she is similar to many early steel warships built in Philadelphia for the US Navy.

On May 1, 1898, Olympia devastated a
Spanish fleet at Manila Bay in the Philippines,
beginning the Spanish-American War.
Olympia helped catapult the United States
into the role of superpower and won fame
for her most famous officer, Commodore
George Dewey. It was from Olympia's bridge
that Dewey delivered his famous order, "You
may fire when you are ready, Gridley." Olympia
also served her country during World War I.

Cruiser Olympia was decommissioned in 1922 and has been part of Independence Seaport Museum’s Historic Ship Zone since 1996.

Olympia is a National Historic Landmark, a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark, is on the National Register of Historic Places, and is part of the Save America’s Treasures program.

[Garth]

Some more ships that got away:

...

I can think of a couple of Fletcher-class destroyers that should have been saved ...

Let's not forget that the ex-USS John Rodgers (DD-574). the last surviving high-bridge Fletcher-class DD, is now rusting away down in Mexico with her fate in doubt.

[rreis]

How many warbirds could you preserve with the money of one dreadnought? (a new dressing for an old question)

I think that's asking the wrong question.

I apologise if I wasn't clear but my rather rethorical question was just pointing out it will always be easier to keep and maintain smaller craft because they cost alot less (I think) and drawing a parallel with an argument of the beggining of the XX century for the UK to leave the dreadnaughts and invest on aeroplanes (I has come to mind after reading JDK post... and thinking that the RAF occupied such a place in the imagination of the XXth UK that the Navy was shun aside... don't know, I digress).

About Olympia I admit to not knowing any detail but only that once sunk it won't come back again. I wish a strong movement of citizens appear to save her somehow (directly or by applying pressure somewhere).

good luck

[51fixer]

There is a drydock just a few miles away at the Philadelphia Naval Yard which was turned into a ship yard.
Someone has to come up with a way to get them out of the water to preserve them.
Rich

[JDK]

Someone has to come up with a way to get them out of the water to preserve them.

Ships that don't fly are dead... Ahhh wrong thread.

More seriously, a most edjimacational thread, this, lots of stuff.

As has been said, you need cash. However you also need state-cash-backing for national heritage listed artefacts. If the state doesn't guarantee that, what's the point?

Regards,

[APG85]

As has been said, you need cash. However you also need state-cash-backing for national heritage listed artefacts. If the state doesn't guarantee that, what's the point?

Regards,

The SS United States was placed on the White House list for Historic Preservation. This however does not prevent it from being sold for scrap which nearly happened this year. Sadly, these beautiful ships are massive and hugely problematic to restore and maintain in a salt water environment. It's a wonder the RMS Queen Mary survives...it has fallen on hard times more than once as a hotel/convention center.
Getting a ship out of the water and moved inland...very, very difficult for a small ship, impossible for a large one...

[hurk130]

When Congress was being non-committal to the new C-130J Hercules funding the Defense Secetary threatened to suddenly end procurement of the plane. Congress got moving and passed the rest of the funding to finish out the production. I wonder if this is the same thing. Trying to force the government or community to get their act together and get the needed funding. Kinda like the Billy Mays "Buy NOW!" thing.

It would be a complete waste of history and another thing. Someone posted the Navy will throw you in jail for finding an old Wildcat but turns a blind eye to this????? Wow! They do speak with a forked tounge.

Kel

[Mark_Pilkington]

As has been said, you need cash. However you also need state-cash-backing for national heritage listed artefacts. If the state doesn't guarantee that, what's the point?

Regards,

The SS United States was placed on the White House list for Historic Preservation. This however does not prevent it from being sold for scrap which nearly happened this year. Sadly, these beautiful ships are massive and hugely problematic to restore and maintain in a salt water environment. It's a wonder the RMS Queen Mary survives...it has fallen on hard times more than once as a hotel/convention center.
Getting a ship out of the water and moved inland...very, very difficult for a small ship, impossible for a large one...

Yes National Funding for Nationally significant Heritage, State funding for State Significant heritage, perhaps even international funding for internationally significant funding (moving some Egyptian temples ahead of a new dam being flooded come to mind).

Unfortunately not many of these big Naval Ships are Internationally significant and certainly not all of them will be Nationally significant and so many are destined to come to an end of life one day.

Hopefully a representative collection, and the historically significant or most technically intact/ better condition examples can be managed into the very long term.

Its clearly not possible to lift them "up" onto dry land or inland, the only viable option is a coffer dam built adjacent to a deep port/waterway, float the ship in, drain the water out for drydock maintenance, fill up with water to create the floating display, even if She is bottomed or blocked rather than floating. Ideally using fresh water? but of course the adjacent salt waterway is likely to create a saltwater water table.

You could simply fill in the temporary coffer dam with soil, ie a drybed not a drydock, but the salt ladened water table will rot the hull quicker than the deepwater saltwater itself, - perhaps layers of plastic and concrete can create a solid but inert tub for the hull to sit in but you are now holding up the weight of the ship totally without bouyancy and so its a building to manage but without any access to the outside of the hull again?

Then the problem is that these Ships need visitors to fund their existance, and high density population areas tend not to have a patch of unwanted cheap "waterfront" land just waiting to have some millions of dollars spent to dig a hole and fill it with a landlocked ship?

Certainly makes dragging a Vulcan or Concorde eventually inside after decades of outdoor display, and fighting the corrosion, repainting and then doing spot treatment a lot easier to contemplate.

Other than the Whyalla beached whale example above, are there any large ship preservations already in coffer dams, I thought the Chinese had one of the former Russian ships landlocked in a hotel/ lake setting?

regards

Mark Pilkington