18 Astronauts request shuttle be brought to NMUSAF

[Garth]

The Shuttles were designed to be used for 100 missions each. They've flown around 30. We are retiring them way to early...with no replacement.

Respectfully, the airframes were designed for 100 missions each. In an environment where we were launching shuttles at a rate better than one per month. They weren't designed for a launch rate of 4-6 times a year with an overall lifespan of 40+ years.

While their airframes may be at 1/3 of their projected life, the components where age is measured by time rather than flights are aging pretty badly. We saw the wiring issues several years back, for instance. Even with all the upgrades they've rec'd (Air & Space has a good article on that this month) they're increasingly hard, and therefore costly, to maintain and fly.

The technology itself - technology that can't be changed - has proven itself flawed. Specifically putting the thermal protection system of the return vehicle in an area where it is vulnerable to debris damage during launch.

[mustangdriver]

Garth, I doun't doubt that you are correct about the hardware of the Shuttle, but to retire the Shuttles, and then cancel the replacement program pretty much sets us up for failure in the future.
I said it once, and I will say it again, I would love for the current president to have to answer to Roger, Gus, and Ed about what he is doing. I am sure that would be an interesting conversation. I don't like politics, and politicians, and refuse to go any further than saying that the President has more important things to figure out about this country than where the Shuttles should go.
As far as the NMUSAF goes, I am pretty sure that they will be one of the museums to get one. If they aren't, there will be some explaining to do. Over half of the people that flew the Shuttle were USAF crews. The men that flew the X-15 to gather information later used on the shuttle were USAF. The USAF played a very important part of the Shuttle.

[RandolphB]

After what Chicago did to Meigs Field, I don't believe that for any reason they should receive support in any way from the aviation/ space community. Given the type of politicians they have inflicted upon the world, I feel more like they deserve being quarantined, before their attitudes can spread farther.

Perhaps even Edwards deserves a Shuttle more, given it's involvement with the program...

[mustangdriver]

Great post man, and right on!

[k5083]

Right. But let's poll all the men and women who flew her, not just 15 that are in the pocket of the Air Force.

Wouldn't matter anyway. As I understand it, basically the main criterion to get a shuttle is to have unlimited money on hand, and that's the Air Force. I would bet Dayton will get one.

August

One day remind me to tell you just how many things are incorrect with that post.

I think I can guess what you'd say. Heard it all before, don't buy it.

Anyway, those who want the NMUSAF to get a shuttle should embrace my point. After all, the idea that the former flight crews should have a greater voice than anyone else (engineers, ground crew, taxpayers) in deciding where it goes is just sentimental slush. The argument that "we have the resources to take care of it" should be more powerful, if anyone is being rational about it.

August

[Garth]

... and refuse to go any further than saying that the President has more important things to figure out about this country than where the Shuttles should go.

As far as the NMUSAF goes, I am pretty sure that they will be one of the museums to get one. If they aren't, there will be some explaining to do. Over half of the people that flew the Shuttle were USAF crews. The men that flew the X-15 to gather information later used on the shuttle were USAF. The USAF played a very important part of the Shuttle.

There are two separate topics here, I'm going to address them in individual threads.

I completely agree that the President has better things to do (and I'm going to do my best to phrase the following as non-partisan as possible to stay within the posting rules). However, if it comes down to a request for a shuttle from Richard Daley, or from Gen. Metcalf, political reality says that Chicago gets the shuttle, NMUSAF doesn't.

And the fact is, its really going to come down to that, imho. We aren't talking about a fight between the USAF and a small museum with the backing of the Minnesota Congressional Delegation over one out of of a few dozen Blackbirds (all variants).

There are four shuttles, three of which have flown. The competition for them is going to turn nasty and then go thermonuclear and it WILL become a political issue, decided by politicians and according to political rules. And who exactly is going to do the "explaining"? NASA? Answers to the President. The President? Product of Chicago. The President's Chief of Staff? Product of Chicago. The President's top political advisor? Product of Chicago. The President's most important early/original political patrons and benefactors? Mostly from Chicago. The Majority Whip of the US Senate (actually, considering Reid's chances in NV, Durbin may be Senate Majority Leader when the selection is made)? Product of Illinois, close political links into Chicago.

The fact that the President jetted off to Europe on a moments notice to add his personal and official credibility to Chicago's Olympic pitch - AFTER the IOC had sent all sorts of signals that Chicago getting as far as it did in the selection process was only a courtesy and not going to actually happen - speaks for itself.

It sucks, because I completely agree that NMUSAF should get a shuttle, and the shuttle it gets should be Atlantis. But apart from some b*tching what is anyone in a position of power actually going to do about it if NMUSAF doesn't get a shuttle?

[mustangdriver]

Chicago, the city that has worked harder than any other to destroy General Aviation. They should not be even allowed to enter the running for a shuttle. On top of that they can't raise enough money to fix their projector, how are they going to build a facility to house a space shuttle?

[Garth]

Garth, I doun't doubt that you are correct about the hardware of the Shuttle, but to retire the Shuttles, and then cancel the replacement program pretty much sets us up for failure in the future.

Ok, second topic. I agree as well. The issue here is that the decisions that got us to where are today were made decades ago.

The shuttle is still very much an experimental vehicle. At the time it was cutting edge, and even today is of an incredible level of technical complexity. With that level of complexity comes both risk and cost.

NASA is something of a schizophrenic organization (on many levels, actually). On one hand, it wants to promote bleeding edge technology and foster the advancement of such, but on the other hand it's tasked with doing more "mundane" things such as ferrying humans into LEO and back in a safe and cost-effective manner.

The two aren't exactly compatible. As shown with both the shuttle, and also with the ostensible shuttle-replacement, the X-33. By all reasonable expectations, the shuttles should have been gone long ago, replaced by a better system for doing what they were designed to do. Yet, because NASA lacked the budget, and the motivation, for multiple human-capable launch systems (a conservatively-designed "Space Taxi" to get people up and down, and also a series of increasingly advanced proofs-of-concept to test out new technologies and capabilities), they were stuck with the shuttle - which was an excellent proof-of-concept, but a lousy space-taxi.

As much as I love the shuttle (I heard about Atlantis' last launch only a few minutes beforehand, made it into the break room in time to see it happen and could recount to my colleagues how I'd also seen - on TV - her first launch back in the mid-1980s), I think perpetuating their existence at this point, given budgetary realities, is a detriment to moving forward. The real problem is in the lack of a path forward. There's some good indications, at least in some areas of follow-on capability, as with what the USAF is doing with the X-37 ... and in movement towards public-private collaboration on future systems.

[Garth]

Chicago, the city that has worked harder than any other to destroy General Aviation. They should not be even allowed to enter the running for a shuttle. On top of that they can't raise enough money to fix their projector, how are they going to build a facility to house a space shuttle?

Again, no argument there.

Consider, tho, the irony in having a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier named after Harry Truman, given the B-36 vs. CVB-58 fight that led to the Revolt of the Admirals.

Or the further irony that the intended name of CVB-58 was ALSO the intended name of the carrier that now bears Truman's name.

[mustangdriver]

I guess we will just have to wait it out. I hope that one comes to Dayton, and anywhere but Chicago.

[Pat Carry]

Personally I dont see a shuttle coming to Chicago. Chris, I was wondering what the status is on the construction of the new building at the NMUSAF? Are they waiting to see if the shuttle is coming there which might determine how large the building has to be or is it just fundraising at this point?

[mustangdriver]

I was told that hopefully construction will start in the fall. There are some things I think they are waiting on to see if they get the Shuttle. For example the building will be larger than the Cold War gallery, but inside will be divided into a few sections. The R&D and Space flight, Presidential Collection, and then the Global reach aircraft. They also want to extend the WWII Gallery. SO obviously if the Shuttle doesn't go to Dayton, the building will be the same outside, but inside it will be secioned off differently.