P-51's during the firebombing of Dresden

[Iclo]

reiss: it's definetly not a question of "judging or not judging".

Currently there is no real debat in Europe about the bombing of cities, and I never heard real criticism against the USAF or the RAF on this subject.

Very often, we heard US citizen saying that "European forgot the sacrifice of US soldier during WWII"
It's probably not completly false, but not completly true also.

When a European remember WWII, He thinks about the Allied soldiers of course, but also the martyr village of "Oradour-sur-Glane" completly destroyed by the Germans, killing the huge majority of the population: enclosing the women and children in the church before putting it the fire, the civilian casualties of the battle, the Resistants deported and exterminated, the Jaws deported only because their ethnic origins and the list could be infinite.
When an American remember WWII, I think that the majority of his feeling about the soldiers and the airmen who made the ultimate sacrifice.

The "Free French squadron's" pilot Pierre Closterman describe the same feeling when he came in France at the end of the war: He came with the hard memory of friends killed and when speaking about that with people who stayed in France during the Occupation, he was surprised to discover that his feeling was so different from their.

I don't judge that, I'm simply trying to explain a difference of point of view, legitime for the both "side".

[rreis]

Iclo, I think you misread me (or maybe I wasn't clear or well expressing myself). I point it is to easy to say "they did this" and "they did that" for all sides. Just pick a one side you'll see how easy it is to entrench in it, find some buddies who will go into that trench with you. From the Allied side, the bombed side, whatever (and so, my post was not directed to you).

What "real debate" do you want? War is war, I personally only accept "real debates" after some definition of purpose (meaning, operation objectives). And then I don't do "moral judgments", just "was it good for the objectives" or not judgments. be they physical, social or whatever. And when a European remembers is very vague because there are a lot of Europeans, from countries that were at war, from pseudo-neutral countries, from people sympathizing with one side, with the other, guys that got clobbered, guys that clobbered. But mine is not the normal stance on this subject.

So, to put it in summary, I do understand were you're coming from and do agree with you, you're opinion can change depending on the side of the rifle you are or you're parents were.

In the end, as Yossarian would put it, "they" are all trying to kill you and so all of "they" are the enemy.

(in some way I feel I was not clear again)

[airnutz]

Speaking of napalm. The recent passing of Howard Zinn reminded us of the bombing of the
Royan pocket, where despite 2 weeks of warning and evacuation, approx 1500 French civilians were
killed. Here is an eyewitness account of Sgt. C.R. Young disputing some of Zinn's account
of the incident. From the B-17, "Pink Lady" website...
http://www.thepinklady.fr/post/2008/01/ ... -Royan-War

The Royan mission from the "Pink Lady" site..
http://www.thepinklady.fr/post/2006/09/ ... ion:-Royan

Royan from Wiki...
quote..
During the Second World War, two German fortresses defended the Gironde Estuary: Gironde Mündung Nord (or Royan) and Gironde Mündung Süd (or La Pointe de Grave). These constituted one of the Atlantic "pockets" which the Germans held on to grimly well after the liberation of the rest of France. In the early hours of January 5, 1945, planes of the Royal Air Force, having been told that nobody was left in Royan but Germans and collaborators, bombed the centre of Royan out of existence in two raids. The blame for this raid is usually attributed to Free French General Larminat.[1]

The Allied operation against the German forces on Île d'Oléron and at the mouth of the Gironde River, began with a general naval bombardment at 0750 on April 15, 1945, some 10 months after D-Day. For five days the US naval task force assisted the French ground forces with naval bombardment and aerial reconnaissance in the assault on Royan and the Pointe de Grave area at the mouth of the Gironde. American B-17 Flying Fortress and B-24 Liberator aircraft carried out aerial bombing missions, including extensive and pioneering use of napalm, finishing the destruction of January 5.

More than 3000 French civilians were in the town, of which half were killed or injured in the air raids.
end quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royan#Destruction_of_Royan

[Iclo]

What "real debate" do you want?

I asked for a debat ? no, simply explain the reason of a differont of point of view.
There is no debate, except if you want to try to explain, that what I said is wrong...

And when a European remembers is very vague because there are a lot of Europeans

Vague ? no, simply more global
If the mainland of USA had been invaded by Japanese and suffered the similar damage Europe had, you remembers would be very different from what it is.

from people sympathizing with one side

What are you trying to say ? That the fact of have a human analyse, and no saying "It's good to destroyed German cities, because all the civilians were nazis" only comes from people who a on the "German side" ?
NO, this point of view comes from people who spend month in concentration camp.
Just for this reason, this point of view deserves respect.

So, to put it in summary, I do understand were you're coming from and do agree with you, you're opinion can change depending on the side of the rifle you are or you're parents were.

Be very cautious with this sort of sentence, men.
Both part of my familly were in the Resistance, some of them were arrested, one of them tried to comit suicide to avoid to speak on the torture.
So I will not accept this sort of accusation,

In the end, as Yossarian would put it, "they" are all trying to kill you and so all of "they" are the enemy.

Yes, of course all the German children are "Nazi" and trying to kill us...

[JDK]

Iclo, rres is posting from Portugal.

I would therefore assume his perspective is a European one - in particular one more aware than most of of fascism and neutrality aspects to the European aspect of the war. FWIW, IMHO, you both have more agreement on the topic than disagreement , I think it's a language issue.

Thanks to Airnutz and k5054 for their input to the debate.

As Airnutz said, my earlier comment related to the issues asked about by the original post, and which were all the initial responses to a news search on keyword 'Dresden' earlier this week. If I direct someone to a source, I've checked it delivers. In this case, I though it better the reader could chose his or her preferred flavour of news outlet on the topic to avoid irrelevant discussion of preferred news-outlet biases.

Regards,

[Enemy Ace]

Well, ask a question and watch the Merde hit the Oscillator.

I didn't know this would go for 4 pages, but I personally think WIX needs more threads that make one think and spark some debate.

Apologies to those who don't like their Jack Armstrong All American view of things disurbed.

[rreis]

Iclo, there surely is a language problem here...

What "real debate" do you want?

I asked for a debat ? no, simply explain the reason of a differont of point of view.
There is no debate, except if you want to try to explain, that what I said is wrong...

I assume when you say "there is no real debate" one of the things you want is a "real debate". And I assumed you mentioned a "reaol debate" about the Allied bombing campaign in the European Theater of War.

And when a European remembers is very vague because there are a lot of Europeans

Vague ? no, simply more global
If the mainland of USA had been invaded by Japanese and suffered the similar damage Europe had, you remembers would be very different from what it is.

Had the US being invade you would still find all kinds of flavours and opinions among US americans, that's what I was aiming at.

from people sympathizing with one side

What are you trying to say ? That the fact of have a human analyse, and no saying "It's good to destroyed German cities, because all the civilians were nazis" only comes from people who a on the "German side" ?
NO, this point of view comes from people who spend month in concentration camp.
Just for this reason, this point of view deserves respect.

Taking my words from context and they start to not mean a thing. All points of view deserve respect and dis-respect, is a personall choice you do. That's another thing to the matter, especially in the internet. I could say "It's good to destroy german cities because the war ends sooner. And I prefer to have 10000 germans dead than 1 of our guys down". or "It is good to bomb those cities, think of the money we will make rebuilding them". or "It's terrible to bomb those cities, they are human beings and civilians, it is not humane". Or "It' stupid to bomb those cities, we have had 4 years of war and saw that bombing civilian populations is tantamount to nothing for hoping they will revolt and stop the war, look at the moral of the Londoners during their ordeal", or "It's good to bomb their cities because we need some sort of social appeasement in the light of the bombings that germans have done to us" and I could go on and on.

About who thinks all german were nazis you can find them anywhere. Especially in the internet. If you think those people are high IQ rated is another matter.

So, to put it in summary, I do understand were you're coming from and do agree with you, you're opinion can change depending on the side of the rifle you are or you're parents were.

Be very cautious with this sort of sentence, men.
Both part of my familly were in the Resistance, some of them were arrested, one of them tried to comit suicide to avoid to speak on the torture.
So I will not accept this sort of accusation,

I didn't acuse you, Iclo, of anything. "you" was used in a general tone. In your own words, the personal opinion about events is affected by the personal experience: was I bombed or not? Do I think it was fair? Do I think they needed to do it to win the war?

In the end, as Yossarian would put it, "they" are all trying to kill you and so all of "they" are the enemy.

Yes, of course all the German children are "Nazi" and trying to kill us...

I didn't say such thing, you need to take a stroll and to re-read my words again maybe. What I did say is everyone that points me a gun and is willing to shoot is my enemy. Yossarian is a ficticious character of Joseph Hellers novel, "Catch 22". His enemies are the germans that point 88 Flack guns at his B25 and the USAAF, that forces him to go on the missions were the Germans point these guns at him. It's a great book, I suggest it to anyone.


Iclo, if you go to my first post on this thread you will notice I mention Operation Jerico. I'm amused nobody took this lead. It was celebrated and it is part of the legend that a group of Mosquito fighter bombers bombed and made a passage on the Amiens wall to help resistants escape because they were going to be shoot by the germans. The crux of the matter is that such was not the case. The jail was bombed, alright, but as a ruse to make the germans believe D-Day was happening somewhere else than Normandy. So the brave fallen during the bombing were still brave but more of expendable nature, like killed on cold blood, one might say (or not, depends on who holds the finger).

The amazing part is this "lie" lived into well the XXI century, where you would witness a memorial and celebration day every year in Amiens to celebrate the gallant british deed... until the documents were de-classified and the truth emerged. Was this a "good" deed or a "bad" deed?


And like others pointed out I find it amusing the lack of interest the bombing of japanese cities finds in these discussions. Are "we" to close to the germans and more easily fit their shoes?

[JDK]

Again, I think there's a serious language issue causing an apparent disagreement where I don't see one.

Perhaps try the conversation in German?

Iclo, if you go to my first post on this thread you will notice I mention Operation Jerico. I'm amused nobody took this lead. It was celebrated and it is part of the legend that a group of Mosquito fighter bombers bombed and made a passage on the Amiens wall to help resistants escape because they were going to be shoot by the germans. The crux of the matter is that such was not the case. The jail was bombed, alright, but as a ruse to make the germans believe D-Day was happening somewhere else than Normandy. So the brave fallen during the bombing were still brave but more of expendable nature, like killed on cold blood, one might say (or not, depends on who holds the finger).

The amazing part is this "lie" lived into well the XXI century, where you would witness a memorial and celebration day every year in Amiens to celebrate the gallant british deed... until the documents were de-classified and the truth emerged. Was this a "good" deed or a "bad" deed?

I'm interested in your reference to the Operation Jericho attack on the Amiens Prison. I'm unaware of any question of it being specifically only a 'diversion' from D-Day, and a quick look for recent references don't add anything that wasn't known before. Suggestion that one or two prisoners had data about Operation Overlord and thus added impetus to the need for the attack (to either kill or release there men) is interesting, but changes neither the event not its success - although if documented, that would be interesting. It certainly doesn't make it either a 'lie' or even a non factual 'legend' as you've suggested.

The raid on the prison was a last chance for escape for numerous resistance members, and quite literally as they were due to be shot - they really had nothing to lose. I don't see anything to dispute that the raid was carried out, and numerous resistance members did escape and many of them evaded recapture.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/amiens.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jericho

I would of course be interested in evidence that adds to or disputes the events as currently documented. However, I'd be very surprised if the success of the raid could be questioned in the way that (rightly) both the Polesti and Dams raids have had their actual effects reviewed with significant doubt as to the real impact on Axis capability (as expected and hoped for by the Allied planners) in both cases.

In none of these cases does the review of the reality of history call into question the gallantry, bravery and sacrifice of these young men.

Regards,

[rreis]

I'm interested in your reference to the Operation Jericho attack on the Amiens Prison. I'm unaware of any question of it being specifically only a 'diversion' from D-Day, and a quick look for recent references don't add anything that wasn't known before. Suggestion that one or two prisoners had data about Operation Overlord and thus added impetus to the need for the attack (to either kill or release there men) is interesting, but changes neither the event not its success - although if documented, that would be interesting. It certainly doesn't make it either a 'lie' or even a non factual 'legend' as you've suggested.

The raid on the prison was a last chance for escape for numerous resistance members, and quite literally as they were due to be shot - they really had nothing to lose. I don't see anything to dispute that the raid was carried out, and numerous resistance members did escape and many of them evaded recapture.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/amiens.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jericho

I would of course be interested in evidence that adds to or disputes the events as currently documented. However, I'd be very surprised if the success of the raid could be questioned in the way that (rightly) both the Polesti and Dams raids have had their actual effects reviewed with significant doubt as to the real impact on Axis capability (as expected and hoped for by the Allied planners) in both cases.

In none of these cases does the review of the reality of history call into question the gallantry, bravery and sacrifice of these young men.

Regards,

JDK, I'll dig the reference, I read it in the french magazine "Le Fana de L'Aviation". I never put in any doubt the "gallantry, bravery and sacrifice" of those in the front line. About the sucess of the objectives of Amiens (illude the germans) I think it was very good. The question of the raid is their primary motive not being what was thought to be true.

Off course, thinking on that, someone should dig it deeper. After all "fana" also published an account demolishing Hartmann 352 victories from a russian author which I've read the rebuttal somewhere on the web. But it is another matter, although one I would like to see more input because I'm an Hartmann's fan...

------------
OK: "Le fana de l'Aviation", n 432, November 2005, page 18-27. "La manipulation d'Amiens", by jean-Pierre Ducelier. There is a book mentioned as reference in the article: "les secrets du bombardement de la prison d'Amiens, 18 Février 1944 - Jéricho", volume in the collection "La guerre aérienne dans le Nord de France". Editions Paillart.

It is given this reference also (for you to check, I have to leave home for work): Operation Ramrod 564, the name of the operation was "renovate", Jerico is a name that only appears after 1946, after the movie "Jéricho" from Henri Calef. The official story line was part of a misinformation campaign, inserted in the Fortitude plan (to make the germans think the strike would be at the Cas de Palais), and appeared in the Sunday Graphic at 29 September 1944. And, by the way, it seems there were no executions going to happen "the next day". So yes, a brilliant executed and sucesful operation of mis-information. But perhaps some of the dead or the dead one's families would think otherwise. I can try to photo the relevant pages (can't scan them because I bound them in a book).

best,

[rreis]

ps, I reckon someone should correct the wikipedia page. hmm, and I'll bet it would be an interesting thing to watch...

-- edit ---

if you go to the french version of the wikipedia you get ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ra ... C3%A9richo )

La thèse de la manipulation [modifier]

En 2005, une analyse [1] a remis en cause les buts réels de l'opération Jéricho. Cette thèse s'appuie sur plusieurs éléments :

* Bien que 180 personnes étaient emprisonnées par les Allemands dans cette prison aux côtés de 523 droits communs, aucun agent allié n'y était incarcéré, bien qu'il ait parfois été affirmé qu'un des prisonniers connaissait certains secrets sur le débarquement.
* Pour motiver les équipages, le commandant de l'opération avait précisé que l'action visait à libérer 120 résistants condamnés à être fusillés le lendemain, dont certains avaient aidé des équipages alliées tombés en France à échapper à la capture. En réalité, aucune exécution n'était prévue dans les jours suivants l'attaque.
* Il a été dit que l'attaque aérienne était coordonnée avec une action de la Résistance pour aider les prisonniers à s'échapper. Aucune trace d'une telle action n'a été trouvée.
* Enfin, le nom même de l'opération, Jéricho, n'apparut qu'après le conflit, en 1946. En 1944, l'opération était connue sous le nom de Ramrod 564, parfois surnommée « opération Renovate », du nom du mot-code devant éventuellement en marquer l'abandon en cours d'action. Le nom de Jéricho ne lui fut donné qu'après la guerre, lorsque la RAF diffusa sous ce nom un film retraçant ces évènements.

Tenant compte de ces éléments, et du fait qu'Amiens était éloignée des futures plages du débarquement de Normandie mais proche du Pas-de-Calais, l'auteur de l'analyse pense que cette opération s'inscrit dans le cadre de l'opération Fortitude, destinée à induire en erreur les services de renseignements allemands sur le débarquement allié. Cette attaque sur la prison d'Amiens aurait servi à faire croire au contre-espionnage allemand que parmi les personnes emprisonnées à Amiens se trouvaient des résistants dont les Allemands n'avaient pas soupçonné l'importance, et que ces personnes étaient dans la connaissance d'un débarquement à venir dans le Pas-de-Calais.

which translates, using google "babelfish" (sorry to be lazy)

The thesis of handling

In 2005, an analysis [1] has questioned the real purpose of Operation Jericho. This thesis is based on several factors:

* Although 180 people were imprisoned by the Germans in the prison along with 523 common rights, no Allied agent was imprisoned there, although it has sometimes been said that the prisoners knew some secrets about the landing.
* To motivate the crew, the commander of the operation had specified that the action was resistant to free 120 prisoners to be shot the next day, some crews had helped Allied fallen in France to escape capture. In reality, no executions were planned in the days following the attack.
* It has been said that the air attack was coordinated with the action of Resistance to help prisoners escape. No trace of such an action has been found.
* Finally, the name of the operation, Jericho, only appeared after the conflict in 1946. In 1944, the operation was known as the Ramrod 564, sometimes nicknamed "Operation Renovate", named after the code word to indicate the possibly drop out of action. The name Jericho was given to him after the war when the RAF circulated under this name a movie about these events.

Taking into account these elements, and the fact that Amiens was distant future landing beaches of Normandy but near the Pas de Calais, the author of the analysis thinks that this operation is part of the Operation Fortitude, designed to mislead German intelligence about the Allied invasion. The attack on the Amiens prison would serve to believe in cons-German espionage that among those imprisoned at Amiens were resistant to the Germans had not suspected the importance, and that these people were in knowledge of a landing to come in the Pas-de-Calais.

[k5083]

Thanks to Airnutz and k5054 for their input to the debate.

Hey, thanks for upgrading my screen name to a cooler plane!

In none of these cases does the review of the reality of history call into question the gallantry, bravery and sacrifice of these young men.

And for the chocolate pudding. Yum!

That is fascinating about Operation Maybe-Not-Really-Jericho. I wonder if the research bears it out. Some of the facts would appear to be fairly easily checked, which might establish the level of credibility of the big picture conclusion.

The benefit of revisionism like this, even if it turns out to be inadequately supported, is that it forces us to reexamine the basis for things we have always believed. It sometimes turns out there is not much there besides wartime propaganda plus endless repetition plus a comfortable place in our heroic narrative.

August

[the330thbg]

True dat!

[drgondog]

Since the thread is about 'strafing' Debden by P-51s I thought we might get back to a.) the questions and b.) possible answers.

First, the question "could Mustangs go that far". Yes, easily. There were many escort missions to Brux, Posnan, Politz, etc.

Second, the question and ethics of 8th AF bombing of Dresden. The USSR specifically requested targeting the marshalling yard complexes to impede the flow of supplies and men to the Ost front. We did it, and combined with RAF, we killed a lot of civilians.. as Tokyo, as Hamburg, as Nagasaki, as Hiroshima, etc etc... having said this, there were tactical reasons for all those targets.

Third, "would Fighter Pilots be briefed to strafe Dresden". No. Strafing streets and buildings as worthless in a Mustang as strafing water and plowed fields. Fighter pilots WOULD, however, occasionally shoot up road traffic, trains, barges, wagons, cows, running figures in the field, etc. Some would have been bothered by the possiblity of killing civilians, a few would not care.

I have seen a lot of film, I do remember one scenario where a 190 was hit low over Hannover. I suspect this could have been translated by some civilian a mile away as 'being strafed' when in fact, he was a victim of the fickle finger of fate. I know more than a few WWII fighter pilots that look blankly when questioned about "ROE". My father had two pilot friends hung by German civilians, and another shot in the gut by an SS officer, with his own .45. Bill Cullerton survived that and remains alive today.

The ROE was use your judgment, protect your wingman, protect the bombers, 'see a German fighter? Kill that German fighter!!".. and try to bring your ship home if at all possibe.

[JägerMarty]

[quote="Mgawa"]My cousin was war prisoner in Germany during the WW2 and his first wife lost her life during the bombing of the Hamburg.

Bill- no, I do not glorify not make and idol any of the persons quoted above, just wanted to note some of their interesting quotes.[/[quote]

THat one of Le May says it all really

[Chicoartist]

Excellent (and refreshingly unpretentious) post, Bill!

Oh, I know you're partial to your dad's group, but ...

Since the thread is about 'strafing' Debden by P-51s ...

. Just having a little fun ~

Wade