Obama Plan Privatizes Astronaut Launchings

[bdk]

That seems very clear to me. Anything goes wrong you pay August to sort it out...

By the way, that pretty much is modern libertarianism in a nutshell.

[k5083]

Huh. I did not know that about libertarianism, but then I don't know much about libertarianism at all. I never realized libertarians were such great friends of tort liability. Under an ex post compensation regime, you would need quite a strong state apparatus to make sure that people can be sued and held responsible for the consequences of their actions, and judgments extracted from them. My impression was that this would kind of chafe libertarians. I tend to think of libertarianism as "I do what I want, tough luck if it harms you" but that may be an outdated notion.

August

[JDK]

huh?

Big man sharing big thinking in playskool place.

But don't worry, there's always TV, I'm assured.

Ryan, no ya don't. You'd have a problem with the moral vacuum for one.

August's assuming that there will be regulation remaining with an enforceable legal system. Rather than multinational (offshore) private enterprise able to say 'f**k you' to national government - as in certain African countries for instance. [Edit: Cross post with 'liberty for me'!]

Just being awkward.

[RyanShort1]

JDK,

I don't know. I tend to separate in my mind (perhaps wrongly) the idea of Law, and the rule of law, and regulation. When I think of a law, I think of it as based on a higher moral standard, it must have a sanction, and really be wrong. usually, I think that a just law could be understood and appreciated by most people with enough thought, and is usually based on the principles found in more basic laws.
Regulation on the other hand, usually means to me more oversight, and control of an industry, often involving protection for established businesses and generally frowning upon innovations or ideas that might indeed be dangerous, but not necessarily morally wrong. It also seems to be aimed at prevention, rather than sanction. It also usually involves things like licensing and privilege - thereby implying that a government has a right to deny you access to a line of work or business. That's something I generally oppose myself. Mind you, I'm not sure I want just anyone jumping into a plane, but I think reasonable application of laws could deal with the issue instead of licensing. Frankly, I'm more scared of car drivers... some of whom aren't licensed around here.

Maybe that's confused, but maybe not.

Ryan

[bdk]

Huh. I did not know that about libertarianism, but then I don't know much about libertarianism at all. I never realized libertarians were such great friends of tort liability. Under an ex post compensation regime, you would need quite a strong state apparatus to make sure that people can be sued and held responsible for the consequences of their actions, and judgments extracted from them. My impression was that this would kind of chafe libertarians. I tend to think of libertarianism as "I do what I want, tough luck if it harms you" but that may be an outdated notion.

No, that is anarchy. Modern libertarians believe (generally) that the government exists to enforce contracts (among other limitied and well defined duties). If you dump a pollutant in the river I irrigate with that ruins my crop, then I sue you for damages. The government provides the courts and the means to enforce the decision.

[muddyboots]

as opposed to a strong government which prevents your polluting the river in the first place.

[RyanShort1]

as opposed to a strong government which prevents your polluting the river in the first place.

Not quite accurate - the strong government prevents you from accidentally polluting the people's river in order to protect the people so they can keep providing income for those on the higher levels of equality... All the while making sure that no significant production comes from said crops, there being no incentive to really work anyway.

Ryan

[muddyboots]

[k5083]

Bdk, thanks for that information on libertarianism. I always have had trouble distinguishing it from anarchism.

Muddy, you're absolutely right about government regulation. However, if the regulation-free environment works the way libertarians think it should, then the river will not be polluted in the first place anyway, because if the polluter is acting within his rights, the farmer will have paid him not to pollute the river (contract) and if he is not, he knows in advance that the farmer will sue him for doing it (tort law).

Of course, all of this depends on the farmer knowing, and being able to prove fairly costlessly, that the polluter is polluting the river -- the economic assumption of "perfect information" -- and the further assumption that individuals make rational decisions. These are two of several assumptions needed to make libertarianism and price-theory economics work that can readily be shown to break down often, indeed nearly always, in the real world. That is why those theories are inadequate to govern anything really important. But I would be willing to give them a shot at governing manned space travel. I'll just make a note not to build myself a house near a launch facility.

August

[RyanShort1]

The other problem that some of us see with heavy governmental regulation is that industries tend towards centralization and monopolies. Then, when you still end up with a problem, even under the regulations, then it affects a WHOLE lot more people. If you have one little farmer serving his neighbors, even if he makes a mistake, it's relatively contained. When some big meat packer manages to get around the regulations, or someone doesn't properly carry out their oversight, then you have a huge problem with whole states affected.
Or big programs like a space shuttle, where one little mistake can overcome a mountain of paperwork and oversight that is supposed to keep disasters from happening.

Ryan

[k5083]

The other problem that some of us see with heavy governmental regulation is that industries tend towards centralization and monopolies.

Actually, that is a natural tendency of industries under free markets. Government sets itself the goal of restraining that tendency, e.g. through antitrust laws, but doesn't always do a very good job.

August