greyed out national insignia question

mike13 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:20 pm

For what it's worth , part two. The US Army had the same problem as the Germans were using the nice big white star on the turret as an aiming point for their anti-tank rockets so the order came down to smear mud on the star. And so it goes.
Mike13

seabee1526 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:18 pm **Posts:** 459

http://www.pwam.org/b24_gallery/b24_tour3.html

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:29 pm

Ken wrote:

Although it'd be great to see a memo directing the tone-down,

I'd settle for some first-hand recollection or account, rather than second-hand statements.

Quote:

Is there enough proof for a court case? No. Good thing this isn't a court case. The photographic record is good enough for me.

People like easy, simple answers. No court case.

Photo record's good enough for me, too. Again,

Regards,

Ken · **Posted:** Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:49 pm

I never purported that the P-51 above was a toned-down example. Due to the uneven nature of the color and the consistency of staining on the left-most invasion stripe and left side of the star and bar that looks like dirt/oil to me. The photos I referred to previously are completely different, (ie. evidence of overspray, color consistency on an other wise clean airframe).

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:06 pm

No, you didn't.

I was just pointing up what we have is one photo of a P-51D with a dirt originated grey marking, and one photo showing overspray on a B-24 white star. Equal weight on the scales.

We have a lot of other photos - which could be either aged / dirty stars or deliberately toned down markings, or even something quite different - dud paint batch for instance, and no other primary data.

Weighing the evidence makes any hard conclusion iffy, IMHO.

The origination of the thread was a P-51D with 'grey' fuselage stars. I was intrigued that the starboard side star was grey as well as the port, the portside being the same reason as the image I posted above, IMHO. Why? Not to avoid carrying a target, surely - which is the most recent theory for the B-24s and B-17, which is possible, but a weak theory IMHO given attacks were daylight, astern or ahead for the most part. Camouflage on a silver aircraft? Again no.

I'd agree the photos in bulk tend towards the deliberate tone down theory. But let's remember that quite a few here are willing to beat up on journalists for shoddy research, yet some here are also prepared to go straight to the conclusion on the fly.

It is utterly trivial, but an interesting case study of research methodology and reliability.

Regards,

Mike Bates · **Posted:** Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:49 pm

I come across these. Nothing concrete either way but interesting. This one you can see part of the bar on top of the wing and it looks lighter than the one on the side. Could just be the way the sun is hitting it.

You can see the over spray good in this one.

Looks like this one could just be dirty when you compare it to the fuselage.

Mike

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:43 am

James,

I've been looking through Footnote a bit this evening and had a thought that it might actually be useful to compare the pictures from England / Europe with comparable pictures from other theaters such as Italy, Burma, Pacific, etc... and see if there's a trend of dirt and grime that matches. For sure some of the insignia seem to be much better cared for than others, and some of the groups seem to have a trend towards the "dirty" or oversprayed look.
I'm not sure that all of the dirty insignia weren't just that - dirty, but there does appear to be a trend of them being allowed to stay that way if not actually oversprayed with gray.

Ryan

mike13 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:50 am

For what it's worth, -part three and maybe the end
I decided to get the big guns out- Bruce Robertson's "Aircraft Markings of the World" and "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings, 1907-1954 " but in the words of Spike Jones - " You Better Cover Up the Muzzle, the Candy is Falling Out.
The first book has a day by day listing of the changes in markings such as the color of the squadron letters, ID bands, cowlings, spinners, rudders, propeller tip color-you get the picture.
Between the two books , he does mention that new B-17G's arriving in England had gray stars but no details. On the the other hand. there is a photo in the Invasion Stripe chapter showing a camo P-51B or C, "Joan", with stripes and gray star.but no caption, and a Coastal Command B-17 with no markings what so ever.
What it boils down to is that there are photos of painted aircraft and bare metal aircraft with gray stars but no documentation.
If you guys ever need any other camo questions answered, ask away but as far as the gray stars are concerned, the gray stars are a crap shoot at least at this point. Will continue to browse through my 65+ year collection of books from time to time but so far all I've gotten is a headache but it was sure fun and interesting trying.
mike13

JDK · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:01 am

mike13 wrote:

the gray stars are a crap shoot at least at this point. Will continue to browse through my 65+ year collection of books from time to time but so far all I've gotten is a headache but it was sure fun and interesting trying.
mike13

Thanks Mike, and FWIW, I agree absolutely. :lol:

Thanks also to Ryan and to Mike Bates. The 'light grey' star and bar on the silver B-17 is interesting and all we can say for certain is it isn't a rough tone down with a quick overspray or application of dirt. The others are, of course, camouflaged examples.

On another tack, the one coded 'XM' is that a camouflage demarcation like coming in to the top left of the 'M'?

Regards,

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:11 am

James,

First, I haven't forgotten your helicopter request - I'm behind on a couple of fronts (including finishing up the WIX photo contest).

Here's a quick link to some more photos that might be of interest on the topic. I did a really quick browse through some of Footnote last night just before bedtime. I'm not sure that any of them show significant overspray issues, but I do think many of them show grayed out markings. Some of them also clearly show dirt.

http://picasaweb.google.com/doolittlera ... directlink

Here's an example from the album:

Note that the insignia on one aircraft is significantly brighter, while the tail insignia appear to be brighter in reverse...

Ryan

Ken · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:44 am

Anyone have a copy of the famous color photo(s) of B-17s from this group in formation? Seems like it was mentioned in a previous thread and it was decided that the color photos had been taken during a local formation practice flight ... if that rings a bell.

Django · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:46 am

Look at this one. Clearly dirt.

On this one the group markings are clearly brighter than the national insignia.

Second Air Force · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:32 pm

Ken wrote:

Anyone have a copy of the famous color photo(s) of B-17s from this group in formation? Seems like it was mentioned in a previous thread and it was decided that the color photos had been taken during a local formation practice flight ... if that rings a bell.

Ken,

We met one of the pilots in that formation a few years ago. His name is Robert Armstrong and he wrote a book, Friendly and Enemy Skies. Those wonderful color photos of the 381st were, indeed, a practice/PR mission. There are a couple of shots in the 381st Bomb Group gallery here: http://www.381st.org/Gallery/tabid/1693 ... fault.aspx

Scott

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:53 pm

mike13 wrote:

What it boils down to is that there are photos of painted aircraft and bare metal aircraft with gray stars but no documentation.

Would Naval Aviation News count as documentation? Army-Navy Aeronautical Specification AN-I-9b, dated August 14,1943.
Insignia white(or gray as applicable). Scroll down to the next to the last page. (pg 33)
http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/backiss ... 5oct43.pdf

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:45 pm

NOT!! The "gray where applicable" refers to part of the earlier 30 June '43 order allowing gray bar & star for the upper wing surfaces of naval aircraft. Aircraft Markings of the World, 1912-1967, Bruce Robertson.

Carry on, nothing to see here. Continue gnawing the bone... :lol:

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