Port au Prince Vs Berlin Airlift?

[EDowning]

Brad (or anyone who knows)

Are Puerto Plata, Punta Cana and San Isidro in the DR being utilized as staging areas? They are pretty large and not that far away. I would think that they would be key to staging aircraft and materials into Port Au Prince. I'm sure politics play a major role in all of this. I saw that the DR offered troops and Haiti declined today.

[JDK]

According to a new BBC report here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8473906.stm

In a bid to deliver greater quantities of aid, the US military is now operating at four airports in the area - Port-au-Prince and Jacmel in Haiti, and San Isidro and Barahona in the neighbouring Dominican Republic.

The head of the US Southern Command, Gen Douglas Fraser, said 1,400 flights were on a waiting list for landing slots at Port-au-Prince's airport, which can handle 120 to 140 flights a day. The airport, which is under US military control, has only one 2,900m (9,600ft) runway.

Note the video posted in this forum of a Canadian Forces Hercules landing at Jacmel.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34406

Canadian reports say that the Canadian Forces are operating that airfield.

[JDK]

The Berlin airlift involved airplanes from the Air Forces of a couple of countries. A hard and fast schedule could be set and followed. In Haiti, we are dealing with pretty much anything that flies! Civilian light planes filled with water bottles mixed in with military, airlines, freight contractors, politicians that just want the photo opportunity and foreign countries that want to contribute.

I was a bit thrown by Brad's comment that Berlin was 'airplanes from the Air Forces of a couple of countries'. Brad's right in that the American airlift was military only, but actually the explanation is an interesting one. The USAAF ran one airlift in parallel with the British effort, but separately. (I'd been aware that they had different codenames (Vittles & Plainfare) for the operations, but missed the point that they were also actually completely separate. The British airlift did include a substantial civilian involvement (including civilian flying boats joining the RAF Sunderlands) and a wide variety of aircraft.

the British chartered many civilian aircraft. British European Airways (BEA) co-ordinated all British civil aircraft operations. Apart from BEA itself, the participating airlines included British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) and most British independent airlines of that era - eg Eagle Aviation, Silver City Airways, British South American Airways (BSAA), the Lancashire Aircraft Corporation, Airwork, Air Flight, Aquila Airways, Flight Refuelling, Skyways, Scottish Airlines and Ciro's Aviation. Altogether, BEA was responsible to the RAF for the direction and operation of 25 British airlines taking part in "Operation Plainfare".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blo ... in_Airlift

The USAAF sensibly (and were able to) set on the DC-4 / C-54 combination quickly, with only a couple of other types in use and drawing down the C-47 involvement when the bigger truck horizontal loadable types came on stream. Conversely the British never had enough of any core types to do that, so it was much more mixed.

Dunno if anyone else finds the Berlin 'revew' interesting, but I'd like to thank Brad (and out other contributors) again for the efforts and taking the time to share the current Haiti events with us.

Regards,

[rreis]

This is indeed one of the most interesting almost out of topic threats I've seen around here

[Brad]

Since the USAF ATC is now in place, has there been an appreciable improvement in the airlift situation? For those looking for fuel, is the Dominican Republic or even Puerto Rico an option to bounce on over to and refuel to head back home (or come into Haiti)? I would imagine for US Military flights, getting fuel at Gitmo might be an option though storage capacity and simply getting it into the base may be an issue.

Thanks again! Mark

Mark I couldn't begin to tell you what other airplanes do besides us. I'm sure lots of options are used but the C-17s carry enough fuel to complete the mission. We've got the luxery of doing that, I'm sure a lot of others don't.

Brad,

This may seem silly, but would it be possible to fly one of the missions into Haiti with "The Spirit of WIX" on the side?

Ryan

Not a silly idea Ryan. But it's pretty far from being related to what we are trying to do there. Too many media cameras down there anyhow! I might see about doing it at an airshow sometime.

Brad (or anyone who knows)

Are Puerto Plata, Punta Cana and San Isidro in the DR being utilized as staging areas? They are pretty large and not that far away. I would think that they would be key to staging aircraft and materials into Port Au Prince. I'm sure politics play a major role in all of this. I saw that the DR offered troops and Haiti declined today.

Eric,

I'm not sure. Quite honestly I haven't looked into what other fields are being used. From what I understand the passengers I've been carrying to say, the DR hasn't been that helpful. Of course, some of those people have a narrow view of things. I'm not bashing any of them at all but even refugees can be hard to please! One lady called my crew chief a "white devil" and another lady refused to get on my plane today (the third plane she's refused to get on) because it wasn't up to her standards. Doesn't matter to me, put her in the back of the line! Only about 40,000 more people are waiting their turn!

I was a bit thrown by Brad's comment that Berlin was 'airplanes from the Air Forces of a couple of countries'. Brad's right in that the American airlift was military only, but actually the explanation is an interesting one.

James,

I'm not sure I meant for that comment to be taken literally. What I meant was that all the airplanes were controlled by the military. How much was British and how much was American or what percentage was civilian aircraft, I'm not sure. I never really thought about it. The logistical control of the situation was probably 100% handled by the military or the respective governments.

This is in contrast to what was happening in Haiti at the time I wrote my original message, basically a free for all of airplanes arriving. That, in my opinion, is the biggest contributer to the bottle neck conditons at the airport. At least the ones that could be controlled...can't really do much about the parking space, from a practical viewpoint. Now as far as supplies getting from the airport to the people, well I'm not sure what the deal is. It's my opinion that it has nothing to do with the airlifters. We are getting the stuff to the airport. Where it goes from there is off of our scope.

I've never spent a lot of time studying the Berlin Airlift but I understand the basics of it. The biggest difference I see is the kind of stuff that we carried to Berlin versus Haiti. In Germany, we (meaning all airlifters) were taking in the stuff needed to sustain life. Mostly food, water, coal, medical supplies and such. In Haiti, we are taking in all of that, in additon to a lot of items the military needs to set up security and much of the infrastructure needed to deliver supplies. We are also taking in the machines needed to "undo" a lot of the damage that has been done by the earthquakes. In short, the future of Haiti is coming in on boats and planes. West Berlin and a large percentage of it's occupants would probably survived without the airlift (going on the assumption that an agreement between the allies and communists could be reached to avoid starvation) but from a practical standpoint, I believe Haiti could cease to exist, for most intensive purposes, without this airbridge.

While both operations have many similarities, the difference in scope is staggering! I'm pretty sure that airdrop will become a large part of the food and water deliveries in the coming weeks.

To the rest of you that offered your thanks and good wishes, it is appreciated! Dan, maybe we'll cross paths.


I went back to Port Au Prince this afternoon. I carried 179 refugees out to Florida.

[daveymac82c]

Hey Brad,

thank you for posting those brilliant images. It really gives you a feel for the magnitude of the operations down there.

And, thank you for doing what you do. I'm sure there were a few people aboard your plane that would classify you and everyone else in rescue operations as angels.

By the way, it's interesting how so many of those shanties looked to be in fairly decent repair. Some places still look liveable.

Anyways, thanks again.

Peace,

David

[JDK]

Hi Brad,
Again thanks for your insight and input, and not least your work at the moment. Well done mate.

I'm not sure I meant for that comment to be taken literally. What I meant was that all the airplanes were controlled by the military. How much was British and how much was American or what percentage was civilian aircraft, I'm not sure. I never really thought about it. The logistical control of the situation was probably 100% handled by the military or the respective governments.

Fair comment again, and I wasn't disagreeing with your original (good) point. I think it's fair to say that the early stages of the Berlin airlift were difficult and confused - I don't know who provided ATC at the Berlin airports (and of course there was no ATC for the marine aircraft) and it was clear that (exactly like Haiti) there was a drive from an initial mixed input with diverse aircraft and nightmare logistics towards streamlining and simplifying. Today aircraft and infrastructures are more capable and able to do more in wider conditions than they could then, as well as the greater scale of the Haiti effort today. Just like Haiti, the Berlin guys didn't know what would happen next, and while our 20/20 hindsight tells us that, it only happened that way due to a terrific effort.

Another critical point is that when they started the Berlin effort they didn't know if that airbridge could actually work, and it was starvation level rations for the Berliners, initially at least. While there are major challanges, I don't think there was any doubt that the Haiti airlift would have a major effect - in fact some of the concerns arise from the fact that - as you've said - getting the aircraft there isn't the issue, it's managing at a very crippled and small infrastructure airport, and bringing in infrastructure for distribution and repair as well.

I've never spent a lot of time studying the Berlin Airlift but I understand the basics of it. The biggest difference I see is the kind of stuff that we carried to Berlin versus Haiti. In Germany, we (meaning all airlifters) were taking in the stuff needed to sustain life. Mostly food, water, coal, medical supplies and such. In Haiti, we are taking in all of that, in additon to a lot of items the military needs to set up security and much of the infrastructure needed to deliver supplies. We are also taking in the machines needed to "undo" a lot of the damage that has been done by the earthquakes. In short, the future of Haiti is coming in on boats and planes.

Absolutely.

West Berlin and a large percentage of it's occupants would probably survived without the airlift (going on the assumption that an agreement between the allies and communists could be reached to avoid starvation)

That's a big assumption, however. What 'might have happened' in history is a tricky area to venture into, but I see no doubt, based on Stalin's other actions that he would cheerfully have let the West Berliners all die of starvation. (An example is the Red Army halt before the Warsaw Uprising to enable the Germans to erase much of that Polish resistance and city, for one. That was one airlift that failed, through no lack of effort by the Western Allies, or the brave aircrew*. Stalin had no problem with wiping out thousands - millions if he could - of his own people let alone a former enemy.) The only 'agreement' likely to have been reached would have been for the Western Powers to give the whole of Berlin to Stalin, and what point of starvation they'd have done that we (thankfully) don't know. The minimum would have been substantial numbers of dead and debilitated and a communist controlled Berlin.

There's no question of the remarkable effort into Haiti, and people do tend to think bigger or better (or smaller or worse) is implicit in discussing historical comparisons to inform today's events. That's not my intent, and I'd hope most would agree that just like Brad, Tom and the others who are making a huge difference today, the aircrews of the Berlin and Warsaw airlifts deserve as much credit for their attempts to redirect history, as we agree today's airlift crews deserve massive thanks.

Regards,

*See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising

Nevertheless, from August 1943 to July 1944, over 200 Royal Air Force (RAF) flights dropped an estimated 146 Polish personnel trained in Great Britain, over 4000 containers of supplies, and $16 million in banknotes and gold to the Home Army.[87]

The only support operation which ran continuously for the duration of the Uprising were night supply drops by long-range planes of the RAF, other British Commonwealth air forces, and units of the Polish Air Force, which had to use distant airfields in Italy, reducing the amount of supplies they could carry. The RAF made 223 sorties and lost 34 aircraft. The effect of these airdrops was mostly psychological—they delivered too few supplies for the needs of the insurgents, and many airdrops landed outside insurgent-controlled territory.

“There was no difficulty in finding Warsaw. It was visible from 100 kilometers away. The city was in flames and with so many huge fires burning, it was almost impossible to pick up the target marker flares.”
—William Fairly, a South African pilot, from an interview in 1982[88]

From 4 August the Western Allies began supporting the Uprising with airdrops of munitions and other supplies.[89] Initially the flights were carried out mostly by the 1568th Polish Flight of the Polish Air Force stationed in Bari and Brindisi in Italy, flying B-24 Liberator, Handley Page Halifax and Douglas C-47 Dakota planes. Later on, at the insistence of the Polish government-in-exile, they were joined by the Liberators of 2 Wing –No. 31 and No. 34 Squadrons of the South African Air Force based at Foggia in Southern Italy, and Halifaxes, flown by No. 148 and No. 178 RAF Squadrons. The drops by British, Polish and South African forces continued until 21 September. The total weight of allied drops varies according to source (104 tons,[90] 230 tons[89] or 239 tons[10]), over 200 flights were made.[91]

...by denying landing rights to Allied aircraft on Soviet-controlled territory the Soviets vastly limited effectiveness of Allied assistance to the Uprising, and even fired at Allied airplanes which carried supplies from Italy and strayed into Soviet-controlled airspace.[88]
...
The Red Army's order to halt just a short distance away on the right bank of the Vistula, and not to link up with or in any way assist the Resistance forces, is blamed on post-war political considerations and malice by Stalin.[10] According to this opinion, by ordering his forces to halt before entering the city, Stalin ensured that the Home Army would not succeed. Had the Home Army triumphed, the Polish government-in-exile would have increased their political and moral legitimacy to reinstate a government of its own, rather than accept a Soviet regime. The destruction of Polish resistance guaranteed that they could not resist Soviet occupation, that it would be the Soviets who "liberated" Warsaw, and that Soviet influence would prevail over Poland.[10]

Again, one can see parallels (and clues to possible plans) between Stalin's calculations regarding Warsaw and Poland and his intent, therefore, in post-war Germany towards Berlin.

All very interesting. IMHO.

[67N20]

Brad, thanks for the pictures and the "inside story" of what is going on there.
Can't wait to see some government official complain and raise a "safely issue" on the passenger seating in your plane.

[davidbray]

Brad, thanks for the pictures and the "inside story" of what is going on there.
Can't wait to see some government official complain and raise a "safely issue" on the passenger seating in your plane.

I'd like to echo all the thanks for the inside story on the relief effort. Also as far as the passenger seating, it raised an eyebrow for me and then I thought "gee that looks like it could be kinda fun to ride like that." I realize they are fleeing devestation, but if it weren't for that, riding on the floor of a C-17 would be fun, for me at least.

[rreis]

Probably this idea was already thoughted off by those who know best and so I was curious if it has and, if so, why was not tried...

Use a carrier to base choppers that would carry containers from the ships that cannot enter the harbor into the mainland. The carrier would be some sort of naval base and the port problems would be bypassed.

What do you think? surely there are constraints I'm not seeing and I would like your opinions on those...

many thanks,

[m50a1ontos]

That's one of my Brother-in-laws Birds!
If you run into Chief Steve Paull Tell him Scarecrow says hi He's a short little fireplug lookin guy, probably still sporting a bruise on his cheek from a run in with a pallet jack.

[Eric Presten]

There is now an Albatross flying doctors and medical supplies (4000 pounds per trip) to a beach. This is certainly a parallel to the British seaplanes involved in the Berlin Air Lift.

[JDK]

There is now an Albatross flying doctors and medical supplies (4000 pounds per trip) to a beach. This is certainly a parallel to the British seaplanes involved in the Berlin Air Lift.

Thanks Eric,
That's great news, and for us marine aircraft aficionados, cool.

Eric's thread on the Albatross ops: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34462

News report and video of the take-off: http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/new ... ?id=406678

Cheers,

[JDK]

Just bumping this thread back up to let people know that many and various contributions have been used in my blog posts here: http://vintageaeroplanewriter.blogspot. ... m-sky.html on Jan 21st and here: http://vintageaeroplanewriter.blogspot. ... haiti.html a couple of days ago. Thanks to all those that kindly provided material, photos, thoughts - and not least - permissions.

[fotobass]

Sitting in my hotel room in Santiago, DR, reading this...tomorrow we head over the border to go do some work at an orphanage that's taken in children orphaned in the wake of the quake. Not going to get into PaP...jest here for a few days before heading back home.