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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:32 pm 
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CAPFlyer wrote:
Guys, I think you'll find that you're mis-reading the quote from Bill. I've bolded the important word.

Bill Greenwood wrote:
They do such a nice job of making things, probably what Rolls might be doing if still in that business.


He's recognizing that RR is still in business, just not in the business of making piston engines.

Good catch... but they are still in the business of making piston engines... they just don't leave the ground ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:33 pm 
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The new engine in the HFM's Mustang uses the Hovey spin-on conversion :D and we had added the Hinz filter a couple of years ago. The chip light on the Hinz unit may have saved the plane and pilot about 16 mos. ago, so we're real believers in that system. We're using Cross Country multi-vis oil in this engine and change it every 25 hrs. I just pulled the cowlings for an oil change last week and there was NO oil on the induction trunk (or any where else around the engine) so it's all staying inside.

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Last edited by Hal B on Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Thanks Bill and Glenn. Like I've always said, I have no problem asking a dumb question. Without exception, someone out there will have the correct answer. We usually end up with about a quarter cup or so on the trunk after 25 hours or so.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:55 am 
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It was good that you brought that up Chris!

In my opinion, 25W60 does not stay on surfaces as well as 120W. It's viscosity rating is less when cold, so how can it? If I remove the rocker covers after an engine has not been run for a week there is very little oil film on the cam racks as compared to what I see with W120. I see a lot more rust with 25W60 as well for the same reason if the airplane is not flown regularly. 25W60 may be nice in cold weather, but other than that...

Just my opinion


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:15 pm 
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OK, Glen you are the guy to do the field research. Go talk Kermit into getting the Mossie flying again, put Shell 120w in one engine and Phillips 25w-60 in the other and run to TBO and check the results.
My point is that what we now have is a lot of opinion, some of it like yours educated or even expert opinion, but not the same as scientific proof. The oil company guys are expert but their results come more from lab tests and not flying warbirds or even running engines on a test stand. Are the oil guys totally unbiased or do they lean toward promoting the new product even in unintentionally?

Glen do you work on or know anything about Allisons re oil changes etc?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Bill,

I don't fiddle with Allisons.

What is TBO on a Packard Merlin? It would be impossible to caomare wear unless you started with new engines.

Do you know someone that manufactures a product and claims that a competitor's product is superior to theirs? :D

I maintain that in this day and age there is no "bad" oil, just different oils for different purposes and climates. Rust is most likely not an issue for Chris as he is in the Phoenix area, or you for that matter, and cold weather is not an issue for me being in southern Florida. It's basically a matter of personal preference and what gives you that warm fuzzy feeling!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Glenn, As for one company saying a competitor's product is better, of course not and that is not the question that I ask the oil co reps. BUT Aeroshell makes both types of oil, actually all three types and more. So you can ask the reps and also read their literature on lab tests as to how their Shell 15W-50w compares to straight 100w (50weight). Or Phillips 20w-50 versus their single weight. If you go to Sun N Fun the reps may give a seminar or at least be at their booth to talk to. I don't start my conversation with talk of Merlins or just 120 W, I look at what facts they have.
Obviously,they say the multi is better when cold, flows better throughout the engine, doesn't make the oil filter go into bypass, etc. BUT THEY ALSO SAY that the multi is better on the HOT end. If I have the terms right from memory, they say there is more shear strength in the more modern multis at the hot end. It is not just a matter of which oil seems thicker when sitting at room temperature, and not a matter of one brand over another.
As I said these are lab tests, not actual engine test runs. Also the co reps might just be biased toward selling the latest product, the multis. But I have also looked at similar lab tests by Aviation Consumer and found pretty much the same results.

If rust was the big problem, one can even use mineral oil, which leaves a protective coating inside the engine, that is why it looks so dirty, and it resist rust. Guys in England are still running mineral ok, and some are using 100 not 120.

I have not seen rust inside a Merlin after running, that is my personal experience with 1000 hours on my current Rolls model 76 run since major on Phillips 25w-60. Also my experience of the 550 hours on my previous 76 which began on mineral then switched to Aeroshell 120 w, mostly. I never saw, heard, or thought rust was a big problem. Same for a few minor oil leaks. The big problem as I know it is cam and follower wear, though to be mostly occuring on dry start ups, worse in cold weather.

Colorado is very dry, sometimes too dry for our skin and hair. Florida is a wet, salty corrosive atmosphere, so maybe rust is a problem there when just sitting. As for oil dripping off the cams when sitting, it sounds like the 120 w would be better, at first glance. BUT when you shut down a Merlin after flight the engine is very hot inside, any oil will be thin and run off. Even if one oil did linger on the cams better, is that sufficent to offset startup wear or do you need good oil flow asap above all else? I am not certain, both types of oil seem to work.

It would be rare but it can get cold in Florida. Years ago we came down to an event at Tittusville and it was in the 30s, I think , plus the wind. Colder than when I left Colorado.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:40 pm 
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I think about a tablespoon of oil a month on the floor from an 1820 counts as "oil tight" ;)

(not accustomed to the new quoting procedure here)

ZRX61, I am NOT an A&P, but show me an R-1820 that doesn't slime the neighborhood and I'll show you an engine with no oil. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:36 pm 
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Somewhere between Florida & Colorado sits Illinois, and as Glenn mentioned rust is a storage problem. While I was using the multigrade, I'd find rust on the rockers and springs after a winter hibrination. Since I have gone to 120, I have not seen that rust. Coincidence? (Glad its gone.)
VL


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Glenn Wegman wrote:
What is TBO on a Packard Merlin?


600hrs, with the heads & banks pulled at 400hrs.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:11 pm 
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ZRX61, I don't believe there is any actual TBO on an Merlin in the U S, nothing of a legal sense or even a factory sense. Years ago I was told there was a 500 hour one in Canada. In combat I read they got about 250 hours, and airline Merlins got 1200-1400.

I think getting only 6oo hours on a Merlin would be pretty low. Mine has almost 1000 and was running good last time I flew it. It is a Rolls, the Packard should be ok too. The idea of an head and bank overhaul at only 400 hours seems real low. I don't know all the Mustang times, but I know the Stallion 51 guys told me their engines were up around 700 or 800 hours one time when I flew with them. And I remember John Baugh saying his 51, Miss Coranado, had 1000 hours on the engine (may have had a head and bank?), and he had used 61 inches for every takeoff. Don't know what oil he used, but there was not 25w-60 then. I am assuming normal use, using filters and pre oil and heat, not racing it,not a lot of high power, high rpm running, not neg g acro etc.

Vlado, is that why they call it the rust belt up there? And you say 120 or you using mineral or is it 120w, A D? And you call store it up here in our dry climate if you need to. No charge, just leave the keys, please.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Bill, I just go by what I hear at work :)

We have one apart right.

& I am a great believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Changed a 1340 a while back that apparently has something like 3500 hrs on it. O/H tag on it was dated early '50's :shock:

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Last edited by ZRX61 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:26 pm 
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ZRX61 wrote:
Glenn Wegman wrote:
What is TBO on a Packard Merlin?


600hrs, with the heads & banks pulled at 400hrs.

Note- There is no legal number for TBO on a Merlin.
I have heard of engines that did over a 1000 hours. (w/o a Hinz or a spin on replacement filter)
I have experienced engine pulls at 700 hr, 450 hr, 130 hrs, 30 hrs and 1 hr in the last 4-5 years.
Some of those can be viewed here- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21830&hilit=Bald+Eagle+Aviation )

The engine is an ON CONDITION ITEM.

If inspection and maint procedures do not show any issues with the engine, it can continue in service.

My intent is to shoot for 650 - 700 hrs TBO w/ heads and banks getting done about half way or 300- 350 hrs.

Rich

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Bill: Its 120 AD.
(Golly, I can't seem to find the keys right now.......the valet must have them......)
VL


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:46 pm 
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ZRX61 wrote:
Good catch... but they are still in the business of making piston engines... they just don't leave the ground ;)


Good catch. Should've said "Piston Aero Engines". ;)


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