New Air Force Wings

[bilwor]

The USAF issued wings to the first class of graduates who have never flown manned aircraft. see below
bill word

"Unmanned Career Progress: The Air Force leadership approved the creation of an 18X Air Force Specialty Code for officers who operate remotely piloted aircraft during the service's intelligence-surveillance-reconnaissance summit Sept. 29 in the Pentagon. This new, yet-to-be-named career field will be considered "rated," carry a six-year active duty service commitment, and will qualify for aircrew incentive pay. Future 18X pilots will earn the wings that the Air Force began handing out last month to its first class of graduates who learned to operate MQ-1 Predator RPVs without prior manned flying experience. The leadership wants more time to come up with a name for this career field that better articulates what the new mission area entails. "


http://www.airforce-magazine.com/DRArch ... wings.aspx

[sdennison]

Going to be interesting to watch how this develops. Are they "pilots" or "IT"?

[mtpopejoy]

Going to be interesting to watch how this develops. Are they "pilots" or "IT"?

Gamers

[RyanShort1]

The real question is what kind of rivalry will develop between the "real" pilots and the guys pushing them around from the ground. In a perfect world of course all services and groups work together, but history suggests that turf wars and such will follow.

Ryan

Last edited by RyanShort1 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Blackwing]

IMHO. Both are pilots. One is in danger of possible imminent death....the other is not. Both have their unique attributes. The UAV has no "feel" to it so flying it may be more difficult as it is less intuitive. There will be inter-branch rivalry though. There will always be the "real" pilots and the "fake" pilots. (although no one thinks training in a simulator is worthless or "fake" time spent.)

[mlenoch]

Curious, will they log 'flight' time?
Will they draw combat pay?
VL

[RMAllnutt]

I've been told that drone pilots have actually suffered more from combat stress than those actually in the zone. Apparently, going to battle during the day, then going home at night over a long period of time has caused some significant stress related problems. I guess it's a bit like hopping in a hot shower, then diving in an icy pond, and then back to the hot shower over and over... Even though their lives are not in danger, they are very aware that any mistakes they make can cost lives. It sounds very stressful indeed come to think of it....

Richad

[Randy Haskin]

Curious, will they log 'flight' time?
Will they draw combat pay?

Right now they are logging "UAV" time, for whatever that's worth -- they don't get actual aircraft credit for it.

This last week they just approved "flight pay" for 'em, though.

The real question is what kind of rivalry will develop between the "real" pilots and the guys pushing them around from the ground. In a perfect world of course all services and groups work together, but history suggests that turf wars and such will follow.

A very astute observation, especially from a civilian! This is the one area where I feel USAF pilots have shot themselves in the foot -- we've so wanted to stiff-arm UAVs that we've created another career field to fly them. While this is a short-term gain, in the long term I feel that this new group will eventually wield much more political 'power' as a community than rated pilots will. It is inevitable that UAVs will technologically improve, they will become more and more useful in a multitude of missions...and as their aircraft become more key to mission accomplishment, so will their operators.

So, I see a big "FAIL" on the part of USAF pilots for allowing this to happen. It will ultimately be our cultural demise.

I've been told that drone pilots have actually suffered more from combat stress than those actually in the zone. Apparently, going to battle during the day, then going home at night over a long period of time has caused some significant stress related problems. I guess it's a bit like hopping in a hot shower, then diving in an icy pond, and then back to the hot shower over and over... Even though their lives are not in danger, they are very aware that any mistakes they make can cost lives. It sounds very stressful indeed come to think of it....

Very true, from what I've heard from colleagues who have done it. I know several steely-eyed killers that I've been to no-kidding combat with (getting shot at with SAMs and AAA) who tell me that the stress is like nothing they've seen before. It's not the same as the visceral fear of physical danger to your body, but more the extreme psychological changes they have to go through in 12-hour shifts.

Killing bad people (and watching good guys get killed) half of their day, and then going to your kid's soccer games when you go home at night. Sounds like a good deal, but apparently it is causing a lot of people some PTSD-type symptoms.

The rebuke to this always inevitably comes from the boots-on-the-ground types who think that a guy who is nowhere near the action and gets to go home to his family every night experiencing PTSD is the pinnacle of pussification from the USAF.

Unfortunately, the reality is that these guys are indeed experiencing often extreme psychological stresses that are causing them problems with adjusting to their lives. That's the absolute definition of PTSD, like it or not.

Trust me, no aviators that work from freight containers in Nevada are claiming that they are in as much stress as the boots-on-the-ground over in the AOR. They are, however, saying that some of them need help to get by.

[Paul Krumrei]

Killing people no matter if you push a button or pull a trigger is the same in the mind. I agree with you Randy in that PTSD ( which I have been rated for from the VA ) is a terrible thing, even if you are not with your boots in the sand.

Nightmares, the stress of combat, because again, you are put in a situation where you have to be there, supporting people on the ground, flying a multi-million dollar airplane and make life and death decisions.

Now, if you are 12,000 miles from the action, or deep in the sh*t, to me, it makes no difference.

Any person who volunteers for the military, to serve their country, if it be here or there, are in my mind heros for what they do to make this land we can be proud of.


Paul

[Chicoartist]

Can't help but think of Dos Gringos at a time like this ...

The Predator Eulogy

They shot down the Predator, that's one less slot for me
They shot down the Predator and it filled my heart with glee
I had a smile when I logged on to AFPC
They shot down the Predator, that's one less slot for me

They shot down the Predator and I say let's send some more
Let's fly ‘em over Baghdad and then see what's in store
‘Cause I heard that the Air Force wants another 24
They shot down the Predator and I say let's send some more

They shot down the Predator and I wonder how that feels
For that operator who lost his set of wheels
It must feel so defenseless; it's like clubbing baby seals
They shot down the Predator and I wonder how that feels

... and, as they comment during the song ~

"So what happens when your Predator is shot down? Say 'What the hell' and go get a cup of coffee?"

[JDK]

Interesting thread.

The real question is what kind of rivalry will develop between the "real" pilots and the guys pushing them around from the ground. In a perfect world of course all services and groups work together, but history suggests that turf wars and such will follow.

A very astute observation, especially from a civilian!

AFAIK, it's almost the definition of the military, like 'a university is a fight over car parking rights'. Certainly what we call turf wars go back in records to ancient Greece and Rome, and military management, whether naval, army, or latterly, air force has been dealing with the periods of supremacy in the arena of one specialism or another.

It's been a starker, more obvious factor in 19th and 20th century naval development, navy being very technologically driven in this period - and as the technical background and specialism of the admirals at the top dictate which direction the Navy should go. Thankfully the carrier naval-airmen came to the fore in the USN and RN in the late 30s just after the IJN guys did, for instance!

The trick is to maintain the 'healthy' rivalry to maintain esprit de corps while ensuring that teamwork kicks in when the chips go down.

A (simplified) example of this is that the RAAF 'lost' the helicopter force to the Australian army after Vietnam because the army wanted to feel their control over their support.

Following Randy's point about squeezing out and creating a competitor is core of force independence. The whole doctorate of the 'independent air force' always has the 'elephant in the room' of protecting an air force turf against the navy and army who'd carve up what they see as useful and ditch the rest. This is the unacknowledged driver (one of several) to finding jobs 'only' the air force can do.

I've been told that drone pilots have actually suffered more from combat stress than those actually in the zone. Apparently, going to battle during the day, then going home at night over a long period of time has caused some significant stress related problems. I guess it's a bit like hopping in a hot shower, then diving in an icy pond, and then back to the hot shower over and over... Even though their lives are not in danger, they are very aware that any mistakes they make can cost lives. It sounds very stressful indeed come to think of it....

Very true, from what I've heard from colleagues who have done it. I know several steely-eyed killers that I've been to no-kidding combat with (getting shot at with SAMs and AAA) who tell me that the stress is like nothing they've seen before. It's not the same as the visceral fear of physical danger to your body, but more the extreme psychological changes they have to go through in 12-hour shifts.

Another interesting point, and flows on from the experience of the first aviators on the western front, and is an explanation of some of their more riotous behaviour. Generally, prior to combat flying, periods of combat would subsume the person for a period - in battle, on campaign or aboard ship, and it was the aviators who first came back to clean linen and fresh beds, good food and quality alcohol every night, and a visit to the nice French ladies if wanted - to go out the next day for the next battle, and then back to a 'rear echelon' style Mess again the following night - less their unlucky friends.

Obviously not the same, but a development on that track, IMHO.

Regards,

[RyanShort1]

I for one would KIND OF (not very much, just from an academic / curiosity point of view) like to be on hand if there was a situation like a larger limited war (more like Vietnam than Iraq or Afghanistan) and see what can be done A2A vs. the drones. Then we'll see just how good they are.
From my limited vantage point it seems to me that there are still several weak points in the drone system that could be exploited if things really got heated up. I think an enemy stands to take serious losses from them - in value if not in numbers, but there's a limited supply apparently at this point, and it would be fairly easy to figure out some countermeasures - which I tend to think would have to be pro-active vs. reactive in order to be successful. The other issue too, which I think would change in a larger-scale conflict is the whole deal of keeping high-value targets close to civilians, thus making for very bad publicity for the "robot" operators. I personally find that a somewhat false dichotomy, but it makes things much, much more annoying from the PR point of view, and the bigger the conflict, the more problematic it will be.
I guess part of what I'm saying is that I think at some point we'll either see fairly good UAV fighter-type aircraft, or have to protect them with manned aircraft.

Ryan

[L2Driver]

Flight pay for UAV operators??? Are you kidding me??? Then we might as well get the Space Command satellite guys rated and into the program, too.

Flight pay used to require participation in actual aerial flight -- or at least the expectation of flying on a somewhat regular basis.

I'm sure the stress of operating a UAV is very real however one can argue the same of the guys in the back of an airborne command post (wait, they actually fly) or guys agonizing over live data feeds and making real-time life/death decisions (with no special wings or flight pay).

Did we really need another set of wings? The aircrew, observer, or air battle manager wings didn't provide enough scope to adequately cover this role?

While I believe UAV's are a critical asset that will continue to develop and evolve, the above is pretty sad.

Both the Army and USMC have hand-launched UAVs that are deployed from the battlefield. They're operated by enlisted personnel who are not rated, do not draw flight pay, and do not sport aircrew wings.

[b29flteng]

If they fall out of their chair while flying a combat mission and break their wrist do they get a Purple Heart? What if they spill their coffee on themselves?

[RyanShort1]

If they fall out of their chair while flying a combat mission and break their wrist do they get a Purple Heart? What if they spill their coffee on themselves?

LOL!

Ryan