Warbird Information Exchange

B17 SMACKDOWN TIME


I'm going to get the popcorn.

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Support Your Local Warbirds! KBO!
The only reasons the airplanes matter is what the veterans did with them... and why.

EVERY remaining B-17 flying or not is the winner.

.....and remember, it IS a moving target. Several points of manufacture, constant shifting of subcomponents and once they went into service all bets were off. What are some of the little "real cool" original bits uncovered during restoration work? The scrap of diamond insulation behind a fixture, the stencils and markings in nooks and crannies, Chuckies' Raft Locker comes to mind as an time capsule (I think it was Chuckie). This has turned into a fun thread so lets not bicker, at least too much!!!

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Aviation Illustration Website
http://shepartstudio.com/illustration/

Yep, it's Chuckie's liferaft compartment that is still totally as-built. There may be others out there, but I only have pictures of the two I've poked around in.

One of my projects-in-planning is to make the dividers for the compartment and maybe a mock-up raft for display. I was a little surprised that no one had ever done anything in there.

Texas Raiders has had primer applied to the raft compartment that I'm pretty sure was done later, possibly during her time with the Navy. I'd guess that she was bare metal when new as well.


The differences in Fortresses built by the three manufacturers and between individual blocks of airplanes would fill a hefty book, I'd bet. Then add in the Mod Centers and in-theater modifications and the book would likely double in size. When do we start?!

Scott

Pretty neat to see the life raft compartments. Do any life-rafts exist anymore?

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

I'm not sure, Scott. I'd tend to think there is one somewhere. Someone on ebay has been trying to sell the little rubber bailing bucket that was in each raft, so the rest of one is probably out there somewhere......here's a nice shot of some youngsters at Amarillo learning about the raft:


And the "outdoor" ditching trainer, also at Amarillo:

This photo may shed a little light on the question of primer/paint on interior surfaces, too. Notice that the raft compartment on this (most likely F-model) is unpainted, as are other areas.

The veterans I've talked to who actually paid attention to such trivia have usually told me that Gs were unpainted from the front of the bomb bay all the way back. It wasn't something many of them thought about or really had strong remembrances of.

S

I had heard all kinds of praise for this restoration, and she does look great. But I was disappointed when I looked a pics of her which showed her insides painted "Interior Green" nose to tail. Granted, it's a minor nit-pick, but the topic of this thread is authenticity, and to me that includes the color.


Yes..these "Flying vs. Static" flame wars remind me of a modeling forum I hang out on, where every thread seems to degenerate into Left vs. Right political mud-slinging. Remember: "This is supposed to be a 'appy occasion. Let's not argue and bicker about 'oo killed 'oo..." (name the movie!)

SN

For an interior "walk-through" of the B-17 Mary Alice at Duxford, click on the link below and then go to Aircraft Walk Through's down the left side...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mclaydon/bkdoor-b29.htm

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

This one looks pretty complete to me...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

I notice the control yoke for the chin turret seems to be missing (unless it's stowed somewhere out of sight.) Also, once again they painted the whole thing Interior Green (although the top and ball turret supports are the correct Dull Dark Green.) Of course, I believe Mary Alice was restored before a lot of research had been done about WWII US inteirior colors..until ten or fifteen years ago, most people assumed that pretty much all American aircraft were painted Interior Green inside. Turns it was a lot more complex than that.

SN

Monty Python and the Holy Grail !!!

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If the first casualty of war is innocence, the second is sobriety - Hawkeye.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws - Plato.
Lies get halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get it's pants on - Churchill
If you are going through he11 - keep going - Churchill

Funny you should mention that...

I'm currently writing a modeler-oriented book on the B-17, and have been immersed neck-deep in Fort-related material for the past few months. While it's not going to be big enough to cover all the small differences between production blocks, things it will cover include the following:

- BO/DL/VE production differences
- Armament development (turrets, nose gun changes including field mods, etc)
- Airframe development
- Electronics (H2X, AN/APS-20, SCR-521, etc)
- Prewar, wartime, and postwar operational history
- List of all US units, with individual squadron and tail markings for each, including postwar units
- List of all foreign users, with tables of known aircraft IDs
- Production breakdown
- Walkaround photographs from both current examples (which is why this thread is very interesting to me!) and clear wartime photos
- Build reviews of most B-17 kits on the market, from 1/144 to 1/48 (NO, I am not going to attempt that massive 1/32 vac kit!)
- List of all aftermarket accessories available for B-17 kits... decals, resin, photoetch, etc

What I've found is that there is a TON of information is out there, but nobody's actually sat down and collated it all into a single-source volume... so, I figured I may as well do it. I ran it past the publisher of my two 109 books, and they were excited about it, so off I went. I am under no illusions of being the next Steve Birdsall ( ), but I intend to make this as thorough and accurate as possible and I certainly welcome any input from people who actually work on, study, or flew the aircraft... that includes you, Scott!

Cheers all,

Lynn

You've got a big project ahead of you, Lynn! I salute you for making the huge effort it takes to research these old girls. You picked the easier of the two heavy bombers to start with--I was immersed in B-24 research for a number of years, and the changes to that basic design are completely mind-boggling compared to the Fortress.

While we're talking about painted versus unpainted interior surfaces, Bill and I have been watching the Memphis Belle restoration with an eye to stripping and treating Chuckie's bomb bay and aft fuselage in the same way. The photos I've seen so far look great. When Matt was working on SJ many years ago they stripped the paint off her innards so I know it can be done. I can't say I'm exactly looking forward to the mess, but accuracy is worth some elbow grease.

Scott

Lynn
Sounds like a VERY cool project, a lot of work, and I'm sure you will catch a lot of flak (so to speak) so details, vintage pictures especially, will be important in documenting the various tweaks and changes.

In looking at Duxford's Mary Alice, I did see a section in the waist, port side about even with the ball turret that had NMF skin and green ribs and stringers (not quite sure of that vernacular) wonder if that was closer to original? Or ALL NMF. At the Waist gun, it looked like an armor plate just beneath the gun covering the structure, with looks to be a canvas shell collection bin below. Not sure I've seen quite the same on any others.

There are arguments enough on aircraft exteriors and markings, which at least there are a lot more pics to compare and study. I KNOW!!!

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Aviation Illustration Website
http://shepartstudio.com/illustration/

NMUSAF pics of Shoo Shoo baby





I know that since these pics were taken that some things have been added to it like the correct boxes, and some equipment.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager