Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:52 pm
To take Mr. Downing's excellent illustrative exercise on whether or
not you can afford a warbird a few steps further:
If you can flip $1 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
Bud Light, you can afford an L-bird (L-2, L-3, L-4, L-5, etc.).
If you can flip $5 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
whatever domestic beer you like, you can afford a PT-bird (PT-17, P-19,
PT-26, etc.).
If you can flip $10 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
your favorite imported beer, you can afford a BT-13 or a BT-15.
If you can flip $20 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
your favorite microbrew, you can afford a T-bird (T-6, T-28...maybe).
If you can flip $50 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
whatever it is you're thirsty for, you can afford one of the "small" fighters
(Yak-9/11, maybe a Wildcat).
And (as Mr. Downing so eloquently stated), if you can flip C-notes into the
fire without flinching while drinking whatever it is you're thirsty for, you
can afford to run on the porch with the big dogs (P-51, Corsair, etc.).
Now I truly understand what champagne taste on a beer budget
means... I can flip $1 dollar bills, $5... maybe $10 dollar bills into
the fire without flinching (too much), but I don't know about $20
dollar bills! Guess I should get a smaller fire, or cheaper drinks,
'cause I can't change my quest to finish & fly the T-6....
One more somewhat serious note... Back when I was 10 years
old (or so) and bought my 1st copy of trade-a-plane, a flying
Mustang could be had for about $75K (a project was about 1/2
that). The next thing I knew, they were $250K, then $500K,
then... (you get the picture). The prices will not go down unless
the whole world falls on it's ass....
When Mustang prices hit a half mil, I switched gears and quit
looking at Mustangs and started looking at the T-6.
Bela P. Havasreti
not you can afford a warbird a few steps further:
If you can flip $1 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
Bud Light, you can afford an L-bird (L-2, L-3, L-4, L-5, etc.).
If you can flip $5 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
whatever domestic beer you like, you can afford a PT-bird (PT-17, P-19,
PT-26, etc.).
If you can flip $10 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
your favorite imported beer, you can afford a BT-13 or a BT-15.
If you can flip $20 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
your favorite microbrew, you can afford a T-bird (T-6, T-28...maybe).
If you can flip $50 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
whatever it is you're thirsty for, you can afford one of the "small" fighters
(Yak-9/11, maybe a Wildcat).
And (as Mr. Downing so eloquently stated), if you can flip C-notes into the
fire without flinching while drinking whatever it is you're thirsty for, you
can afford to run on the porch with the big dogs (P-51, Corsair, etc.).
Now I truly understand what champagne taste on a beer budget
means... I can flip $1 dollar bills, $5... maybe $10 dollar bills into
the fire without flinching (too much), but I don't know about $20
dollar bills! Guess I should get a smaller fire, or cheaper drinks,
'cause I can't change my quest to finish & fly the T-6....
One more somewhat serious note... Back when I was 10 years
old (or so) and bought my 1st copy of trade-a-plane, a flying
Mustang could be had for about $75K (a project was about 1/2
that). The next thing I knew, they were $250K, then $500K,
then... (you get the picture). The prices will not go down unless
the whole world falls on it's ass....
When Mustang prices hit a half mil, I switched gears and quit
looking at Mustangs and started looking at the T-6.
Bela P. Havasreti
Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:47 pm
snj-5 wrote:If you can flip $1 dollar bills into the fire without flinching while drinking
Bud Light, you can afford an L-bird (L-2, L-3, L-4, L-5, etc.).
Nah, don't take the easy way out. Try doing it without the alcohol - staying completely sober... I've known drunks who would do that kind of thing not knowing they were killing themselves.
Ryan
Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:07 pm
Well, naturally, to each his own... (moderation is the key in
life, and not with just booze....).
Anyway, when someone wanders into my hangar and sees
T-6 schtuff (tm) spread all over the place in various stages
of restoration, and they give me "that look", I always say
"Hey, it keeps me out of the taverns....".
Bela P. Havasreti
life, and not with just booze....).
Anyway, when someone wanders into my hangar and sees
T-6 schtuff (tm) spread all over the place in various stages
of restoration, and they give me "that look", I always say
"Hey, it keeps me out of the taverns....".
Bela P. Havasreti
Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:15 pm
Why not buy something that's not something every wannabe wants?
Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:21 pm
snj-5 wrote:Well, naturally, to each his own... (moderation is the key in
life, and not with just booze....).
Anyway, when someone wanders into my hangar and sees
T-6 schtuff (tm) spread all over the place in various stages
of restoration, and they give me "that look", I always say
"Hey, it keeps me out of the taverns....".
Bela P. Havasreti
No offense intended. I'm not a prohibitionist. I just meant that if one was soused, it might be easier not to think about the serious expense entailed!
Ryan
Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:22 pm
JDK wrote:Why not buy something that's not something every wannabe wants?
Well, that's another one of those "to each his own" things....
Bela P. Havasreti
Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:19 pm
It is very tough to actually answer the question of how much it costs to own a Mustang. I can honestly say that I can come up with proof of numbers starting at 0 and ending at a number that is astoundingly high.
Without going too deep into the financial details I will simply relate some real numbers I have operating Worry Bird for almost 21 years now.
I paid 550K in 1989 and I think a fair current value with spares is 1.8 million. So did it cost the difference in these values, or 1.25 million to operate my aircraft for the last 21 years, absolutely not. but will the increase in value continue? I feel it will, as it has since the first guy paid $987.50 for 44-73287 in 1958. But what if you had 550K in the bank or the current value of 1.8 million. That is one of the biggest costs of ownership, if I sold the aircraft I could pay off the house and some of my real estate, or I could invest it in the stock market and possibly even loose the principal totally. I do suggest a background in finance if you can.
I have chosen to also invest in spare parts for the P-51 and have done really well with that investment. I purchased a core -7 in 1999 for 15K and it is probably worth 30K plus now. I have spare wheels for the P-51 and Corsair and they have multiplied in value 10 times in the last 10 years.
Engine overhaul costs $80,000 plus and the engine might go as much as 1,200 hours, but not without some heads and banks work in between. Liability insurance only $1,700 per year. If you have full coverage it should be in the 30K range but with a 10% deductible and the insurance in due and earned upon a claim. So your real deductible could be as high as 180 plus the 30 or $210,000. I have chosen to invest in the spare parts needed for a belly in instead. But it is tough to take the risk of flying these things knowing that if you have to jump $1,800,000 is gone or in the case of the Corsair 2 million plus.
My annuals are very inexpensive since I have a full time mechanic and I do not pay the retail rate. I can do this since he works on 14 aircraft and the costs of all the annuals at retail rate (and flying to a qualified shop) is much higher then his salary. I think $5,000 is a safe figure for the cost of the annual inspection with no serious squawks. I also paid for the hanger many years ago so I only pay for the insurance, utils, and ground lease.
A big item to remember for every aircraft there seems to be a corresponding expected AW-SH?T number that you must be capable of coming up with. For my L-2 it is less the $200.00 for the P-51 it is probably more like $10,000, although I have never had more then $3,000 in unexpected expenses. For the F-90 it could be 100K plus.
Also there is the cost of a total airframe overhaul. I would guess that at 600K every 30 years or so. I have chosen to perform a continuous overhaul program where I have a major section of the aircraft redone every few years. In 1999 I rebuilt the entire firewall forward and all of the coolant and oil tubing. Before that I rebuilt the cooling system and sometime in the near future I will look into the longerons.
Now for the really tough part. There is no one that will finance a Warbird right now. So you either need to pay cash or you need to be able to borrow against another asset you have. Gone are the days as when I bought Worry Bird where a bank will lend 80% to a 27 year old (4 years out of colledge) and no insurance on the aircraft at all. I don't think this will happen again.
I was recently asked what the cost of 100LL was at our local airport. I had to answer that I did not have a clue. What I really meant was that no matter what the cost I am going to do what it takes to continue flying. Now that doesn't mean I don't look for bargains when cross country but I will continue no matter what the costs. This is part of the minset needed to make the plunge and buy a Warbird.
Please continue your dream I started saving for a Mustang at age 12, had a goal of buying one at 47 years old (planned during colledge) and I purchased my Mustang at age 27. It can be done by anyone who puts enough effort into their goals.
Without going too deep into the financial details I will simply relate some real numbers I have operating Worry Bird for almost 21 years now.
I paid 550K in 1989 and I think a fair current value with spares is 1.8 million. So did it cost the difference in these values, or 1.25 million to operate my aircraft for the last 21 years, absolutely not. but will the increase in value continue? I feel it will, as it has since the first guy paid $987.50 for 44-73287 in 1958. But what if you had 550K in the bank or the current value of 1.8 million. That is one of the biggest costs of ownership, if I sold the aircraft I could pay off the house and some of my real estate, or I could invest it in the stock market and possibly even loose the principal totally. I do suggest a background in finance if you can.
I have chosen to also invest in spare parts for the P-51 and have done really well with that investment. I purchased a core -7 in 1999 for 15K and it is probably worth 30K plus now. I have spare wheels for the P-51 and Corsair and they have multiplied in value 10 times in the last 10 years.
Engine overhaul costs $80,000 plus and the engine might go as much as 1,200 hours, but not without some heads and banks work in between. Liability insurance only $1,700 per year. If you have full coverage it should be in the 30K range but with a 10% deductible and the insurance in due and earned upon a claim. So your real deductible could be as high as 180 plus the 30 or $210,000. I have chosen to invest in the spare parts needed for a belly in instead. But it is tough to take the risk of flying these things knowing that if you have to jump $1,800,000 is gone or in the case of the Corsair 2 million plus.
My annuals are very inexpensive since I have a full time mechanic and I do not pay the retail rate. I can do this since he works on 14 aircraft and the costs of all the annuals at retail rate (and flying to a qualified shop) is much higher then his salary. I think $5,000 is a safe figure for the cost of the annual inspection with no serious squawks. I also paid for the hanger many years ago so I only pay for the insurance, utils, and ground lease.
A big item to remember for every aircraft there seems to be a corresponding expected AW-SH?T number that you must be capable of coming up with. For my L-2 it is less the $200.00 for the P-51 it is probably more like $10,000, although I have never had more then $3,000 in unexpected expenses. For the F-90 it could be 100K plus.
Also there is the cost of a total airframe overhaul. I would guess that at 600K every 30 years or so. I have chosen to perform a continuous overhaul program where I have a major section of the aircraft redone every few years. In 1999 I rebuilt the entire firewall forward and all of the coolant and oil tubing. Before that I rebuilt the cooling system and sometime in the near future I will look into the longerons.
Now for the really tough part. There is no one that will finance a Warbird right now. So you either need to pay cash or you need to be able to borrow against another asset you have. Gone are the days as when I bought Worry Bird where a bank will lend 80% to a 27 year old (4 years out of colledge) and no insurance on the aircraft at all. I don't think this will happen again.
I was recently asked what the cost of 100LL was at our local airport. I had to answer that I did not have a clue. What I really meant was that no matter what the cost I am going to do what it takes to continue flying. Now that doesn't mean I don't look for bargains when cross country but I will continue no matter what the costs. This is part of the minset needed to make the plunge and buy a Warbird.
Please continue your dream I started saving for a Mustang at age 12, had a goal of buying one at 47 years old (planned during colledge) and I purchased my Mustang at age 27. It can be done by anyone who puts enough effort into their goals.
Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:31 pm
Mike;
I think your response is a pretty honest assessment of your experience with ownership and I thank you for posting it. Not every owner would be so candid.
I think many of us "arm chair owners" appreciate your input on the subject.
I believe that knowledge of this sort helps everyone to understand what an effort and sacrifice people go to to keep these birds alive.
Thanks for the post.
Jerry
I think your response is a pretty honest assessment of your experience with ownership and I thank you for posting it. Not every owner would be so candid.
I think many of us "arm chair owners" appreciate your input on the subject.
I believe that knowledge of this sort helps everyone to understand what an effort and sacrifice people go to to keep these birds alive.
Thanks for the post.
Jerry
Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:34 pm
Obergrafeter wrote:Hangar rent? You just get one and bring it down to the secret bunker and I'll put you up pro bono.
And he has some friends down the road who will work on it where they have any books on it or not.....
Easy way to do it is to find somebody who owns a Mustang and fly there's...
Lynn
Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:58 pm
Excellent, candid post, Mike, much appreciated. I reckon you have covered all the bases, including the 'unexpected cost ratio'!
And yes, I'd agree you can fulfil your dreams if you really want to.
And yes, I'd agree you can fulfil your dreams if you really want to.
Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:56 pm
Someone just told me that annuals for a similar Merlin powered warbird cost between $10-20K and engines last about 1000 hours between overhauls if treated gingerly (or as few as three laps if treated poorly!).
Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:39 pm
Firstly, Ryan I appreciate your elaboration onto your response. I definitely see your point and agree with it. My idea with this thread was to figure out what kind of lifestyle/career I would need to be able to afford such an expensive habit like warbird ownership. It's not like I would be wanting to buy a P-51 with my current job.
Learning what it takes to own the "hottest" toy will give me an idea of the most I'd be looking at to play with the big boys, then I can look at more realistic options it it appears unrealistic. Certainly, I'd want to start smaller. I would be scared "sh*tless" to fly a Mustang with my flying experience, especially my lack of tailwheel time.
You can't achieve anything without setting a goal first. If you set your goal so ridiculously high, falling short of that goal is still really sweet! My ridiculous goal is a Mustang. If I end up with ANY airplane I'd be really happy, even if it was a C-172 (which James might suggest is very similar to a Mustang).
And as for James' comment..... I'm just not interested in buying a Supermarine Walrus, as much as it is unique.
And then Mike, what you provided all of us here on WIX is EXACTLY what I was looking for! I really appreciate you chiming in to enlighten us all. Your overview of all the expenses was terrific, and I appreciate your enthusiasm and encouragement to follow our dreams.
Having read what you wrote, I'm thinking of starting small. I really intend to buy a Fleet Canuck within the next year, if I can get my ducks all in a line.
Then from there, I'll learn a little bit more about airplane ownership first hand.
So... thank you to everyone for contributing to this discussion.
Cheers,
David
Learning what it takes to own the "hottest" toy will give me an idea of the most I'd be looking at to play with the big boys, then I can look at more realistic options it it appears unrealistic. Certainly, I'd want to start smaller. I would be scared "sh*tless" to fly a Mustang with my flying experience, especially my lack of tailwheel time.
You can't achieve anything without setting a goal first. If you set your goal so ridiculously high, falling short of that goal is still really sweet! My ridiculous goal is a Mustang. If I end up with ANY airplane I'd be really happy, even if it was a C-172 (which James might suggest is very similar to a Mustang).
And as for James' comment..... I'm just not interested in buying a Supermarine Walrus, as much as it is unique.
And then Mike, what you provided all of us here on WIX is EXACTLY what I was looking for! I really appreciate you chiming in to enlighten us all. Your overview of all the expenses was terrific, and I appreciate your enthusiasm and encouragement to follow our dreams.
Having read what you wrote, I'm thinking of starting small. I really intend to buy a Fleet Canuck within the next year, if I can get my ducks all in a line.
Then from there, I'll learn a little bit more about airplane ownership first hand.
So... thank you to everyone for contributing to this discussion.
Cheers,
David
Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:57 pm
daveymac82c wrote:And as for James' comment..... I'm just not interested in buying a Supermarine Walrus, as much as it is unique.
Hah, you've got no class.
You could do a lot more things with a Walrus than you could ever do with a Mustang, and they're about 100 times rarer, too. But it's not about Mustangs vs Walrii, but whatever floats your boat.
The issue which Mike touched on, and David's aspiring to, is having a real goal and genuinely going for it. From my experience as a journalist, having interviewed a lot of warbird people in all kinds of jobs, the difference between those that sigh and look and those that are 'living the dream' is simply determination. Luck and cash help, but a determined person who really wants something usually gets there. Those that don't usually didn't really want it.
Leaving aside the over-ratedness of the P-51D, there's a lot of fun that can be had for a lot less cost and worry (as touched on by Mike's comment about a reluctance to literally bale-out from a major investment). Some of those can be steps to the single-seat fighter route, and some of those can recoup or share the experience.
I've also been lucky enough to get 'a go' in a lot of interesting aircraft that belong to other people. Heartache and insurance free, and a lot of fun, often a return for some small help I've been able to provide..
Just some thoughts,
Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:29 am
it looks kind of the same in airplanes, as it did back when i was around drag racing.
"you can become a reansonably rich man playing with airplanes, IF you started out as a VERY rich man"
i'm just glad someone still does them so the rest of us [poor boys] can see them.
"you can become a reansonably rich man playing with airplanes, IF you started out as a VERY rich man"
i'm just glad someone still does them so the rest of us [poor boys] can see them.
Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:32 am
If I owned a P-51...
...I'd put it in the middle of my front yard. It would sure beat a garden gnome and it's the only thing I could afford to do with it.