Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:16 am
Like I said, its a nice airplane, but don't advertise the fact that he bought a warbird, when its not one.
Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:31 am
To play the devils advocate for a minute. After all I do not have a dog in this fight. by the definitions provided.
If I built a Sopwith Triplane (The coolest airplane ever) I would then be a "poser"? Not worthy of being a warbird? The airplane never served. What about the data plate rebuilds I have read about? Are they too posing?
I am reminded of a story. Some years ago I bought a Trans Am, a beautiful car. A dark bronze with gold ground effects, rear window louvres. Man I loved that car. Here in Dayton we used to have a Trans Am meet at the airport. I proudly drove my ride there to show off my wonderful car. An older fellow kindly looked at my car and complemented its good looks and then showed me that what I actually had was a Firebird that someone before me had rebadged. I felt like a dupe but not a poser. Everyone was very kind and I felt very welcome, even though, at a glance those who know about such things knew I had a Firebird. Did'nt hurt anything, was in the spirit of the thing.
Is the airplane in the spirit of the thing? Is it of a correct age, shape. Did its kind serve? Are such definitions needed? Just my misc thoughts on the subject. I will now bow out to those who are wiser in the matter.
Arty
If I built a Sopwith Triplane (The coolest airplane ever) I would then be a "poser"? Not worthy of being a warbird? The airplane never served. What about the data plate rebuilds I have read about? Are they too posing?
I am reminded of a story. Some years ago I bought a Trans Am, a beautiful car. A dark bronze with gold ground effects, rear window louvres. Man I loved that car. Here in Dayton we used to have a Trans Am meet at the airport. I proudly drove my ride there to show off my wonderful car. An older fellow kindly looked at my car and complemented its good looks and then showed me that what I actually had was a Firebird that someone before me had rebadged. I felt like a dupe but not a poser. Everyone was very kind and I felt very welcome, even though, at a glance those who know about such things knew I had a Firebird. Did'nt hurt anything, was in the spirit of the thing.
Is the airplane in the spirit of the thing? Is it of a correct age, shape. Did its kind serve? Are such definitions needed? Just my misc thoughts on the subject. I will now bow out to those who are wiser in the matter.
Arty
Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:04 am
Awesome aircraft man, congrats. 
Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:19 am
First of all, yes it is a very nice plane and unquestionably a classic (as that term is defined by the EAA Vintage Aircraft Association) or at least a neo-classic (as defined by the Antique Airplane Association).
Second, Randy as usual is the voice of sense. It's painful to agree with Skymaster when he is being such a jerk about it, but sometimes jerks are right.
It's too bad there is all this focus on "warbird" when we are talking about such a nice classic plane. Some folks are just too hung up on warbirds, IMO, to the exclusion of other planes. Unfortunately, the owner/OP apparently brought this discussion on himself by apparently being one of those folks. Why not enjoy it for what it is? Most of history's greatest and most beautiful planes were not built for the military, and at least a few of us here do not need to see guns poking out of a plane to appreciate it.
August
Second, Randy as usual is the voice of sense. It's painful to agree with Skymaster when he is being such a jerk about it, but sometimes jerks are right.
It's too bad there is all this focus on "warbird" when we are talking about such a nice classic plane. Some folks are just too hung up on warbirds, IMO, to the exclusion of other planes. Unfortunately, the owner/OP apparently brought this discussion on himself by apparently being one of those folks. Why not enjoy it for what it is? Most of history's greatest and most beautiful planes were not built for the military, and at least a few of us here do not need to see guns poking out of a plane to appreciate it.
August
Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:06 am
The whole L-16/Champ thing is a mess. I try to stay out of it because I have two good friends who have them restored very nicely as "warbirds." I guess it really depends on your perspective, but for me, if it didn't actually get accepted by a military (or pseudo-military) air arm, it probably should be given some other classification. On the flip side of that - if a P-51 had been manufactured two weeks after the war by North American and never got accepted into military service but had been sold to a private owner, we'd probably not hear many folks saying that it wasn't a real warbird.
I'd also bet that most of you would not like to see V-tail Bonanzas classified as a warbirds - even though at least one has been used by an air force to drop bombs on enemy targets. In that light should we only count aircraft as warbirds if they actually saw "war?" Only if they were used by a legitimate air force? What about insurgent combat aircraft? What if 50 of a particular type of civilian aircraft saw service with an air force and not the other 200? Does the "type" still get counted as a "warbird?"
I agree with August that it's too bad that many civilian aircraft are not as appreciated despite their equal value in many ways.
FYI Spanner - your plane is welcome up in San Antonio at Cannon any time you feel like paying us a visit.
Ryan
I'd also bet that most of you would not like to see V-tail Bonanzas classified as a warbirds - even though at least one has been used by an air force to drop bombs on enemy targets. In that light should we only count aircraft as warbirds if they actually saw "war?" Only if they were used by a legitimate air force? What about insurgent combat aircraft? What if 50 of a particular type of civilian aircraft saw service with an air force and not the other 200? Does the "type" still get counted as a "warbird?"
I agree with August that it's too bad that many civilian aircraft are not as appreciated despite their equal value in many ways.
FYI Spanner - your plane is welcome up in San Antonio at Cannon any time you feel like paying us a visit.
Ryan
Last edited by RyanShort1 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:36 am
Nice warbird!
a couple of thoughts on the Champ. 1) It is possible to blow the windshield out if you dive it as excessive speed. 2) Yours has a starter, but if your ever having to hand prop it to go fly, don't try goofing around at alttude with the engine turned off. The Champ is one airplane that once the prop quits moving you cant fly fast enough to get it to start windmilling again!
a couple of thoughts on the Champ. 1) It is possible to blow the windshield out if you dive it as excessive speed. 2) Yours has a starter, but if your ever having to hand prop it to go fly, don't try goofing around at alttude with the engine turned off. The Champ is one airplane that once the prop quits moving you cant fly fast enough to get it to start windmilling again!
Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:52 am
marine air wrote:Nice warbird!
a couple of thoughts on the Champ. 1) It is possible to blow the windshield out if you dive it as excessive speed. 2) Yours has a starter, but if your ever having to hand prop it to go fly, don't try goofing around at alttude with the engine turned off. The Champ is one airplane that once the prop quits moving you cant fly fast enough to get it to start windmilling again!
Based on experience?
Sounds like a story coming...
Ryan
Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:19 am
Thank you MARINE AIR for the warning and YES, please share the story if you care to.
As to the warbird status, I am aware that I asked for ALL the slings and arrows and steaming heaps of oppobrium.
BUT be that as it might... Aeronca Champs seved their country quite nobly in Korea as Forward Artillery Command aircraft and OTHER DUTIES AS ASSIGNED.
I have pictures of them painted the correct shade of green and EVERYTHING!
Now Kermit never was one of those! But as more than one person noted, more than one P51 has no more warbird provenance than a number plate and a wannabe at the stick and I STILL persist on recognizing THOSE as warbirds.
So just to make everybody happy I will go over and cry in the corner and suck my thumb...
Me and Kermit need a hug!
And if it were one of the Golden Girls (preferrably the one on the right) or the fabulous dame from Indonesia that would be Otey Buckwheat by me!
As to the warbird status, I am aware that I asked for ALL the slings and arrows and steaming heaps of oppobrium.
BUT be that as it might... Aeronca Champs seved their country quite nobly in Korea as Forward Artillery Command aircraft and OTHER DUTIES AS ASSIGNED.
I have pictures of them painted the correct shade of green and EVERYTHING!
Now Kermit never was one of those! But as more than one person noted, more than one P51 has no more warbird provenance than a number plate and a wannabe at the stick and I STILL persist on recognizing THOSE as warbirds.
So just to make everybody happy I will go over and cry in the corner and suck my thumb...
Me and Kermit need a hug!
And if it were one of the Golden Girls (preferrably the one on the right) or the fabulous dame from Indonesia that would be Otey Buckwheat by me!
Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:20 am
RyanShort1 wrote:On the flip side of that - if a P-51 had been manufactured two weeks after the war by North American and never got accepted into military service but had been sold to a private owner, we'd probably not hear many folks saying that it wasn't a real warbird.
An even better example would be Bob Pond's Bearcat. Unlike the P-51 in your hypothetical, it was an airframe that was never ordered by the military and never assigned a military serial. It is a G-58, NOT an F8F. I will leave the question of whether it is a warbird to those who care.
August
Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:24 pm
So what about Ole 927? She nevered served overseas, was damaged and hauled freight in the US. Does she count?skymstr02 wrote:Its a nice airplane, but its not a warbird, nor a warbug.
Not all Navions are L-17's, not all Cessna 172's are T-41's, not all Ercoupe's are YO-55's, not all Beech Baron's are T-42's, not all Beech 18's are SNB's or C-45's, not all Cessna Skymasters are O-2's, and I can go on all night long. You can go to most any airshow and see the posers on display. I even saw a 1975 pressurized Skymaster with a clam shell door painted like an O-2A on display at a large week long airshow held in late July between Milwaukee and Green Bay.
There were many aircraft built that were adapted for use by the Government, but that doesn't make their brothers warbirds.
But the fact remains is that its not a warbird by definition.
Must be a really big O2 to haul that ego around.
Don....I like your airplane. Hope to see it at IWS soon.
Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:44 pm
man-o-man, SPANNERmkV
you've got a nice plane [tail dragger makes it double neat] and you are getting to fly. a lot of us can only WISH. SO "your the man" right now that some of the rest of us are wishing we could be like.
so again, have fun, be safe.
you've got a nice plane [tail dragger makes it double neat] and you are getting to fly. a lot of us can only WISH. SO "your the man" right now that some of the rest of us are wishing we could be like.
so again, have fun, be safe.
Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:45 pm
I'm not going to get in the argument over whether Don should call his Champ a Warbird or not, but Ol' 927 was indeed built for military service with a military contract, so it is indeed a Warbird.
Gary
Gary
Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:57 pm
Peacebird? Man, dontcha know Champs served quite nobly in Korea as FAC and liason birds...I read that somewhere!
Nice bird Spanner...perfect for St. Patties Day flyovers!
Nice bird Spanner...perfect for St. Patties Day flyovers!
Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:01 pm
Agree with Gary!
I am now officially changing my stance.
I am now a PeaceBird owner!
Kermit is Green! It has a small carbon footprint---4.8 gph
Although I wouldn't want to try a three pointer with a certain ex-VP in the backseat!
I hope the Mods don't pull my thread and make me go to PeaceBirdsInfoExchange
Everybody chill now y'hear?
SPANNER the thick skinned!
PS I'm going to go do some circuits and bumps this evening if the T-storms go away.
I am now officially changing my stance.
I am now a PeaceBird owner!
Kermit is Green! It has a small carbon footprint---4.8 gph
Although I wouldn't want to try a three pointer with a certain ex-VP in the backseat!
I hope the Mods don't pull my thread and make me go to PeaceBirdsInfoExchange
Everybody chill now y'hear?
SPANNER the thick skinned!
PS I'm going to go do some circuits and bumps this evening if the T-storms go away.
Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:04 pm
Spanner
Now that we have determined that Kermit is a peace-bird what about an update on TR? I have everything crossed to see you guys in the air at Wings Over Houston this year!
Chris
Now that we have determined that Kermit is a peace-bird what about an update on TR? I have everything crossed to see you guys in the air at Wings Over Houston this year!
Chris