Warbird Information Exchange

That's the quote of the month right there!

Anyway, I got a good response to my inquiry. Here's what actual OV-10 drivers told me about this maneuver:

From Bryant "Moe" Smith (USMC):

* Better target acquisition for the pilot and observer
* Maintain positive G during the entire maneuver
* Rolling completely inverted masked the exhausts under the wing, for defense against IR systems.
* Because it was cool and we could.


From Randy Roberts (USAF):

The FAC who had only one "marking profile" was stupid and many times ineffectual. You used the complete envelope that the aircraft could operate and directed your attack and marks as well as the fighters to optimize any given situation. Whatever it took to accomplish the missions and insure maximum survival for yourself and the fighters. R2


From Ned "Crash" Helm (USAF):

Nope...it was just the easiest way to get the pointy end pointed at the target. If you pull down to the target (while inverted) you are applying positive Gs which are greatly preferable to negative G's while attempting to Bunt into the target.

When you pull down positively, place the pipper on the target....release the G's (unload)... and while unloaded roll the AC back to "rightside up"... you are now where you want to be to deliver ordinance... you are at zero g... zero yaw... eh voila... shack...

But really...it was just more FUN!


"Nail 32" (USAF):

It was the fastest way to attain a steep dive angle without putting negative G's on the aircraft and crew.


Ed Clayman:

Note - Ed isn't an OV-10 pilot, but he's spent the past few years extensively researching the history of the OV-10D NOS/NOGS prototype and learning about the proper flight characteristics and maneuvers for an upcoming world-class RC scale model competition... and his daughter Jami is the force behind the recently-released documentary "OV-10 Bronco: One Tough Ride"... so I figured his perspective would also be of direct relevance!

In reality the "Split S" or Reversal presents the greatest exposure to ground fire due to the protracted timeline required. The ground is provided minimum differential when tracking any straight inline flight to a specific point.

In recent USN/USMC interviews the above maneuver presented interesting feedback when the NOGS/NOS presented the choice between a Split S or either a Descending Circle or Loiter Maneuver to one side.

I can provide a set of FAI maneuvers and the faults index for several alternatives plus USMC maneuver illustrations to the modeler might be. Have them contact me back channel at (PM me for Ed's email, I don't want to post it publicly here - Mike)

Mike......never did I think I'd see the likes of R2 and Crash on WIX

Thanks for adding their comments. This along with IndyJen's comment made my day

No mystery to the pop-up bombing attack -- a very common way of delivering air-to-ground ordnance. We still teach it today in USAF fighters, although it has pretty limited tactical application currently. I taught (and was taught) it in the T-38, and practiced it regularly in the F-15E. I have even performed a version of it in Afghanistan, although for a strafe pass rather than bomb delivery or shooting rockets.

It is a very efficient way to get from low altitude, to a weapons release "wire", and then back down into the weeds, all the while keeping G on the airplane and making it tougher for enemy gunners to hit you.

Here's what the pop attack line looks like from a God's-eye vertical perspective. Obviously, it's a 3-dimensional maneuver -- after the first check turn, you start to climb, and as soon as you get to the appropriate altitude, you roll over (sometimes on your back -- depends on how the geometry of the attack is set up) and pull down to set your dive angle.



I am uploading a video of a 20-degree pop-up attack to YouTube, which is a much more tame version of the higher-degree pops that were done in Vietnam, as well as the direct pop that the OV-10 discussion is talking about. This is from a T-38C (a new USAF pilot training graduate training to become a fighter pilot), and shows a 20-degree pop-up bombing attack on the Grand Bay range next to Moody AFB, GA.

I'll edit this post and add the link when the upload completes (in 30 minutes or so).

Here's a link for the 20 pop T-38 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70lOk-hOVWc

Is this the same "R2" Roberts who flew F-15Es?

God I love you!

_________________
"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Randy, PM sent.

Thank you all, for your thorough answers. And video, Randy

Tripehound, interesting to hear your story from 'the other end'. And Merlin_FAC; Thank you for the responses from those OV-10 drivers.

Among the other, very valid, reasons for doing the pop up, I also noticed the answers 'Because it was cool and we could' and 'But really...it was just more FUN!'

It seems like the Bronco, as nimble as it is, gets the big boys up in it's pilots

Seeing 'Nail 32' makes me want to read 'Callsign Rustic' again. (As I have been able to find out, both 'Nail' and 'Rustic' was used by 23rd TASS, working out of Nakhon Phanom?)

Take care

J

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My books: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/14115381-jesper-jorgensen

Ah- Makes sense now- he had a couple questions thrown in there
Thanks!
Robbie

The "DaNang Diary" book I mentioned yesterday deals with Nail and Covey FACs, IIRC.

It is not OV-10, but a great book to read is "Bury Us Upside Down", which details the Misty F-100s over Laos, et al... Pretty cool read, and I learned a few things about Dick Rutan I hadn't known- I had respect for him before, but this brought more into the picture... Well written book, and recommended reading for the warbird nut. (Copyright 2006 by Presidio Press, written by Rick Newman and Randy Shepperd)

Robbie

Got some more responses/discussion, thought you'd all be interested...


Dan "Hostage Pigpen" Ahearn (USMC)

Per Moe's and other comments, nobody ever rolled into a target that way. it's just not practical, and frankly a move that that would get you standing tall in front of the skipper followed by long term ODO duty while waiting for orders to recruiting duty..

There is so much going on in the cockpit, I can't imagine having to add a varsity move like a split S to the target. Remember, we didn't have a CCIP or any HUD help. You needed to release your rocket at a specific altitude, airspeed and dive angle for it all to work. If you were high/low, shallow/steep, fast or slow, you'd make a quick change to your aimpoint, oh and don't have any G on the airframe either... then there is the the whole issue of timing to get the mark out, and put yourself in position to see the HUD cripple so you could clear him hot, then call corrections to -2...

Any Bronco driver worth his his salt was like a ref in a football game not noticed ... ..."hit my smoke.... cleared hot.. Dash 2 from leads hits 200 meters west...

Spit S ... hell that would be easy

Hostage Pigpen...


"Hostage Hammer" Dunham (USMC)

Here, let me toss my 2 cents in....

One has to remember that tactics, to a great extent are predicated on the surface to air THREAT. The reason we all went to the "low-alt. pop-up marking" was to survive in a "High" threat scenario. The "Yom-Kippur" war and the latter stages of Vietnam, pretty much erased the old "wagon-wheel" technique over the target (if you wanted to survive).

As I recall, Jim Dearborn and Jim Doner were the first 2 VMO guys, to come up with "pop-up" marking of targets.. They were instrumental, in not only developing the tactic, but, researching the ballistic tables for launch points and data. I would also add that "acquiring" the target before launch was not always required, when doing pop-ups. We often used run in lines with mag headings for launch azimuth, when terrain supported a defillade type launch. In mountainous or hilly terrain, it was not uncommon to launch the rocket, then drop back down below the skyline, calculate the TOF (time of flight), then pop back up and correct off the mark, for the inbound fast-movers. It was a VERY intense environment.

The 2.75 was good for a 3 mile standoff and the 5" Zuni was good for a 5 mile standoff. With the 2.75, a good crew could expect a 100 Meter crp. The 5" Zuni was about 300-400 crp. Not bad for a crappy gunsight.

The most critical part of the launch criteria was the data for the launch point (over the ground) and heading to tgt. The A/O's were pivotal in deriving this data, while the pilot was drilling around in the dirt.

Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.

Hostage "Hammer".....


Bryant "Moe" Smith (USMC)

Replying to above post:

Very good comment. Exactly right. My comments regarded a "perfect" run and took into account tactical considerations. But your description of a typical run in those days is spot on. Jimmy Doner and Guy Hunter guided us in those days.

Moe's general comments:

Really good comments from all. I love hearing this conversation about what we did and how we did it. Pig, as I recall, a split S was good in the Chocolate mountains when we were at altitude and got jumped by a 53 or a Harrier and you had to lose altitude immediately to get down on the ground and then pull up and shoot. But no one would ever use a split S to mark a target.


Dennis "Hostage Lady" Darnell (USMC)

As I recall, you had to have some altitude (and attitude?) to do a split S. Personally, I never had much of the former, and was usually too busy for airshows. As Bull Lt. I flew a lot of first flights with FNG's. A split "S" or any other brand of B "S" got them a jeep, a "Prick 6," and a trip to the boonies for awhile.


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BTW, CWO Guy "Great White" Hunter (mentioned above) and his pilot, Col. Cliff Acree, were shot down in a USMC OV-10 during Desert Storm, and spent the war as POWs. Cliff and his wife wrote the book "The Gulf Between Us" about this experience. Recommended reading!

Quite a discussion going on here!

Ed Clayman

Just speculation...but I think I know where the Warbird discussion group is coming up with their inquiry. There is 16mm footage on a web site showing an OV-10 performing a reversal ~ split "s" viewed from just forward and above its position. There is an Immediate cut/edit to footage taken from the left rear of what is intended to represent the same aircraft as it fires 2.75" or 5" from a steep angle of attack.

I recall another sequence shot on 8mm film at ground level and viewed from the side at what appears to be about a mile. The aircraft is seen rolling to a reversal then spliced footage shows what appears to be the same OV-10 flying in the reversal direction deliverying 2.75" or 5" in the same field of view.


Joe Copalman (Historian)

This technique is also mentioned a few times in books penned by OV-10 drivers. Tom Yarborough makes at least one mention of this technique (acquiring the target while inverted, pulling back to bring the nose toward the target, then rolling wings-level to pickle a rocket off @ around 4000') in "Da Nang Diary." I'm fairly sure at least one other author (either Marshall Harrison or JM Moriarty, if not both of them) mentions this technique as well, so there's more than just video footage putting this out there.

For what its worth, the Yarborough reference occured in a passage in which he was not in combat, but rather taking an AF nurse for a ride, so hostile fire was not a factor (just happened to crack the book open to that page last night while reading through this thread - don't have time to go scanning page-by-page through all my books).

Tim Moriarty (USMC)

There's a 40(ish) year old war story about Gen Marion Carl taking his first OV10 flight in '68 or '69 and at abt 800' AGL he asked the pilot in the backseat "what's the minimum altitude for a split S?"

The answer, I was told, was significantly more than 800' so Marion immediately executed one, successfully, to prove him wrong.

I'm an old, VN era, AO so don't know the correct figures for sure.

I did fly with Maj Al Piper in '69 who impressed me by pulling inverted at the end of one gun run to pick up the target, rotating around the sight to continue the approach. That tactic may have been due to confined airspace in the mountains out by Khe Sahn/Laos. We never talked about it. It did seem to involve a lot of g's and I never flew with anyone else who did it.

Thanks for sharing, Randy. What I wouldn't give for a sortie in a C-model. That looks very cool.

Well, this just lives on and on... but the stories are too good to stop re-posting them now.

BTW, everyone with an interest in this kind of stuff is welcome to join our email list, just go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ov-10fans/ to join up!

Here's another good addendum to this whole thread...

Ned "Crash" Helm (USAF)


There has been a lot of discussion on marking from the OV. First of all you have to realize that there are two types of mark.

1. The planned mark...sort of like a preplanned strike.
2. The "oh sh!!!t" I gotta get a smoke down.

But generally the wing over to an inverted position above the target was the easiest...and...the most fun..and...it was just the easiest way to get the pointy end pointed at the target. If you pull down to the target (while inverted) you are applying positive Gs which are greatly preferable to negative G's while attempting to Bunt into the target. When you pull down positively, place the pipper on the target....release the G's (unload)...and while unloaded roll the AC back to "rightside up"...you are now where you want to be to deliver ordinance...you are at zero g...zero yaw...eh voila....shack...

But really...it was just more FUN!

But after firing 21 or more 2.75s per mission ....for a year....you got VERY good in TLAR (that looks about right). After the war I was stationed at Osan with a whole bunch of ex-Nails...when we went to the range...you know the scoreable type with base... final... shoot..all canned....it was unusual for a CEA of more than 50 feet for blue four...and all shack for the rest.

We had an all Korea turkey shoot held at Kooni Range in 75 with all fighters from Korea plus us OVs...and the Marine Harriers from Japan. The 19th TASS won the shoot...but the hairiest was the Top Gun for RX. I led a four ship...on our first flight we were all "all shack" 16 dead on rx--four each. Then the powers what be decided to award an individual prize for RX...having four guys on zero cea was..to them unacceptable. To make a long story short...we turned the OVs loaded with two LAU-69s of 2.75s (14RX). I can't remember who 2 and four were, but three was Chuck Burke.....we lost the wingies around 8 straight....so we all kept shooting...it was not sudden death...I could "miss" but if I did Chuck had to have a better rocket than mine to win.

Its really hard to stay calm when you know you HAVE to shack EVERY rocket...but we did. When Winchester both Chuck and I were still CEA ZERO! Back to Osan for another load of RX and back we went as a two ship. I think we went 21 straight until I "missed"....my 22d rx went over the top of the pylon at the first scorable increment....but then Chuck fired one slightly short and I won ...literally by feet (maybe inches). The point being that most OV drivers were superior rx shooters(for life).. in the F-4 I was still the best rocket shooter...bombs...now that is a different story LOL. The OV was a superior platform...stable...nimble'

BTW Chuck lives in the Fort Worth area...I bumped into him when I was at the Cowtown Fly in...we remembered the "Turkey Shoot"...with all smiles.

Crash
Rustic 15/Nail 27/Bronco 07/Covey(Sembach) 20

PS - they had to do some serious work on the pylon at Kooni the next day ....those blue solid iron warheads really played hell with the 2x4 pylon. In fact they later created a RX circle and banned the OVs from the pylon.