Airworthy Zeros?

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

lvkeith83 wrote:

stumac wrote:

Matt, I am sorry to tell you but the Zero's other then Planes of Fame are very much real Zero's. The Zero that Tom Thomas owned is probably the most authentic of the Zero's out there. It has a Pratt & Whitney on the front of it (so it can fly) and the origional Sakae sitting in a stand next to the airplane the way it was recovered from the jungle. If you were to talk to Bruce Lockwood he would tell you how the airplanes that were rebuilt in Russia are more authentic because everything was done in metric over there just like origional.
BTW: Tom's airplane (that he recently sold) hasn't been in Mojave for at least four or five years now.

The recently sold Zero is in a hangar @ VNY

Who is the new owner, or is that a secret?

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

bdk wrote:

Some info from a lurker:

Quote:

I couldn't help e-mailing you after reading the Warbirds Resource Group message boards. just a few points...The Sakae 21 is 1705 cubic inches. it has 14 cyls but that is where the commonality to the P&W 1830 ends. Pistons, rods, crank, nose reduction, carburetor, blower and oil system are all different (they don't even look like a P&W at all). It does share a lot of common things like the fuel pump is a Pesco design, the T-6 generator bolts right on, the prop governor has a Ham Std stamp on it (original Japanese stamp).

The Zero captured in Alaska had a Sakae 12. It is in no way like an 1830. These are old stories that simply aren't true plus I think a lot of so called experts back in the day really did not know these details.

The Zeros built in Russia are very nice replicas. The Santa Monica Zero had many real Zero parts on it. lots of ribs and stringers, landing gear and bits. The second "Thomas" one had a few less and the final Paul Allen one did not have any real Zero parts. Nice but maybe should be considered more like the new build FW190.

The Planes of Fame Zero is the original machine as it was when it was captured from Saipan in 1944. Except for some sheet metal including new spars, it is original. The engine is the Sakae 31 which is a 21 improved, with a carburator, using an adapter plate, from a B-24, a starter from a P-63, a gen from a T-6 and brakes adapted to the original wheels from a Mustang. The rudder pedals and master cyls are from the Sanders modded Sea Fury design. American instruments fit right in the same instrument panel, a KX-155 radio and a Concord battery.

We rebuilt our Zero to fly in 1978. We have flown it more then 500 hrs without any problems and it is still flying. As you know it is a very good running machine.

Brandon, you need to tell Steve he needs to join our forum! Thanks for the info!

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:31 am

Just putting my Indiana Jones hat on for a minute ...

If you could FIND , legally recover and export an intact Zero wreck that's been sitting in the Jungle for 65 years what would it be worth on the open market ?

AvroAvian · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:04 am

Quote:

Just putting my Indiana Jones hat on for a minute ...

If you could FIND , legally recover and export an intact Zero wreck that's been sitting in the Jungle for 65 years what would it be worth on the open market ?

I reckon it would depend on how much of the original structure you could reuse in an airworthy restoration, ie if it's only good for patterns and a data plate, maybe not very much. A pretty good guide would be the Me109's out of Russia that went for about USD 40,000.00 ea around ten years ago. The wings were rebuildable but the fuselages were pretty knocked about.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:08 am

Humidity , fungus and other factors aren't very kind to aluminium in the jungle.

I looked at some aircraft in Rabual , PNG in the mid 90's that were on a plantation (local tourist attraction) and the aluminium had cracked up and gone very brittle.

Dan Jones · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:34 am

What was the condition of the Diemert airplanes at the time they were salvaged? They would probably only have been derelicts for twenty-five years or so at that point.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:16 am

The metal is of a alloy while light weight is not very resistant to corrosion. most of the planes that were recovered from the pacific were usable as patterns. Look at the Blayd and the Santa Monica Zeros as a example. Even the PoF Zero, which had it better than the other Zeros still had to have it's spar replaced with new. The spar is what the Zero is built around, it is a single piece, with the cockpit built onto the wing.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

The museum's Raiden appears to be in excellent condition except for the spars. In fact, the engine still turns. The alloy or heat treat was to blame in the spars, not the environment it was stored in.

kalamazookid · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:01 pm

Does anyone know who the owner of the Blayd Zero is and if it ever gets flown?

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:07 pm

kalamazookid wrote:

Does anyone know who the owner of the Blayd Zero is and if it ever gets flown?

I believe that is the one that is in North Dakota

http://mitsubishi_zero.tripod.com/preserved.htm

A6M2 Built by Blayd Corporation using almost all new parts copied from above aircraft. Powered by a Pratt & Whitney 1830 engine, and completed by Tri-State Aviation of Wahpeton, ND. This aircraft first flew on 29th July 2004 and is painted up in the colour scheme of A1-1-129, an A6M2 flown from the carrier Zuikaku in early 1943. The aircraft is currently based at the Fargo Air Museum, ND, and is said to be for sale.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:00 pm

I'm a model builder, and hang out on several modeling forums. There's a guy who's been making the rounds, repeatedly claiming that he has discovered that the tail sections of Nakajima-built Zeroes were several inches shorter than Mitsubishi-built machines. He bases his "discovery" on measurements taken from blurry photos he has downloaded from the interweb, which he claims "prove" his theory. No one else has been able to see what he's seeing, and has tried to tell him he's full of it, but he refuses to be deterred.

SN

A2C · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:14 pm

Quote:

I'm a model builder, and hang out on several modeling forums. There's a guy who's been making the rounds, repeatedly claiming that he has discovered that the tail sections of Nakajima-built Zeroes were several inches shorter than Mitsubishi-built machines. He bases his "discovery" on measurements taken from blurry photos he has downloaded from the interweb, which he claims "prove" his theory. No one else has been able to see what he's seeing, and has tried to tell him he's full of it, but he refuses to be deterred.

I would ignore him; He had a post on j-aircraft which had the "fact", but all other "facts" were wrong. He had the type 22 Zero confused with the type 32, etc.

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Dan Jones wrote:

What was the condition of the Diemert airplanes at the time they were salvaged? They would probably only have been derelicts for twenty-five years or so at that point.

They were in pretty good condition back then. IIRC, Diemert recovered them in about '69 or so. I've seen pictures of the recovered aircraft, and they still had a lot of the green camo paint on them, as well as shiney aluminum. They looked much, much better than the piles of aluminum we now find in the jungle. I think back then, the planes would have required much less work to bring to flyable condition.

Dan Jones · **Posted:** Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:34 am

I remember reading somewhere that someone (Blayd, maybe?) had the aluminum analyzed and found that it was an alloy very similiar to modern 7075 (with, presumably, 7075's age hardening properties) but also very susceptible to stress corrosion.

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

aseanaero wrote:

Just putting my Indiana Jones hat on for a minute ...

If you could FIND , legally recover and export an intact Zero wreck that's been sitting in the Jungle for 65 years what would it be worth on the open market ?

The last jungle Zero project that I recalled seeing for sell was about 10 or so years ago and were the examples that were brought back from Taroa by John Sterling from Boise, Idaho. Back then, they were for sell for over $100,000 each as is. I do know that the Imperial War Musuem in England bought one of those aircraft, but I don't know how much they paid. As I recall, the plane was in pretty bad shape, with a twisted tail and pretty much only good for patterns. One of the planes from the expedition is the extremely rare A6M3 Model 32 with the "squared" wingtips. That plane is currently in Colorado being restored to flying condition with an original Sakae engine by Mr. Skurich at Vintage Aircraft.

Here's more info about the Sterling recovery Zero's:
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/a6m3/3318.html

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