FlugWerke 190Dora

[skooterN2767K]

I have heared the Allison powered Flugwerke D9 is at Stallion 51 in Kissimmee. Is this true? Does any one have any pics other than whats on the FlugWerke web site? Any idea if it will be flown? Thanks! The Dora is my all time favorite WW2 fighter, would be nice to see one fly again so people don't keep assuming the German fighters were junk. Its a shame the ME-109 and FW-190 are so under rated. Maybe if there were 100 Focke Wulfs flying and no P-51's it would be the other way around!!

[k5083]

Um, who have you been talking to who thinks the German fighters were junk? They get a lot of respect from anyone who knows what's what.

August

[richkolasa]

Here's a couple of shots from my friend Jeff, taken last spring:

[skooterN2767K]

Thanks for the pics!! One of my friends who flys airshows, finds it "appauling" that the Germans continued to fly the '109 till the end of the war, and that the Spanish would continue building them and use them as late as they did, as well as other countries. He bases his OPINION on many documentaries that always paint the P-51 and Spitfire as absolute king and the German fighters and bombers as the less able evil airplanes of the conflict. The TV shows always seem to paint them in a bad light too, UNLESS it is a program specifically about the 190 or 109etc.. then the programing seems to go the other way. Why the double standard? I saw a video that claimed the 109 couldn't shoot down another fighter beacause it only had a cannon, and the rate of fire was so slow so it could only shoot down bombers!! I also saw on the Military channel, one of the "Experts" say that the B-17 was olny a LOW ALTITUDE bomber because it was vulnierable to flak!! They even get the American stuff messed up once in a while I guess. Of course my friend TOATLLY discounts other opinions such as Capt Eric Browns evaluations stating they are only his opinion!! I think he would be an excellent judge of the various fighters, he having flown more than anyone else! Also the 109 has a super bad rap for groung handeling, but the German pilots (such as Gunther Rall)claim the accidents with them were an excepion and not the norm. Is the 30% number claimed destroyed in landing and takeoffs a little exaggerated? I heard only 5% according to the German figures. How many currently flying 109's and Buchons have wrecked on landing? Why is the Spitfire NEVER critisised for its narrow gear??

[airnutz]

Skooter!
A-Watch less TV
B-Get better friends
C-Welcome to the WIX!

[mike furline]

How many currently flying 109's and Buchons have wrecked on landing?

Most if not all. There's always that slight possibility that the pilot played a part in it as well.

Regards,
Mike

[DarenC1]

That's not strictly true - there have been one or two badly damaged, but not "wrecked". To the best of my knowledge, only one Bf109/Buchon has been destroyed in recent years, that being the OFMC example in Spain in 1999 (which was a flying accident, not a landing accident).

MBB in Germany has just seen their third (a G-4) fly again after damage last year, after rebuild from a serious landing accident a couple of years previous. Their other two, a G-6 and G-10, have been flying relatively incident free for some time (although the G-10 was slightly damaged last year due to a slight undercarriage failure).

There's also been one Buchon flying here in the UK for the past three or four years incident-free, and the prospect of the ex-CAF example flying again at Duxford....

[mike furline]

That's not strictly true - there have been one or two badly damaged, but not "wrecked". To the best of my knowledge, only one Bf109/Buchon has been destroyed in recent years, that being the OFMC example in Spain in 1999 (which was a flying accident, not a landing accident).

MBB in Germany has just seen their third (a G-4) fly again after damage last year, after rebuild from a serious landing accident a couple of years previous. Their other two, a G-6 and G-10, have been flying relatively incident free for some time (although the G-10 was slightly damaged last year due to a slight undercarriage failure).

There's also been one Buchon flying here in the UK for the past three or four years incident-free, and the prospect of the ex-CAF example flying again at Duxford....

Badly damaged, but not wrecked?
You seem to have pointed out more incidents than non-incidents.

Taken from the OFMC Accident Report,
According to a witness testimony, when flying into Sabadell airport, the two aircraft,
with the Piper in the lead, began a pass at a low height and in formation along runway
31. Approximately halfway down the runway, the HA-1112-M1L aircraft abandoned
the formation to the left and partially repeated the pattern to perform a pass
along the runway, at a low height and high speed, finishing with a climb with a barrel
roll in the direction of Tarrasa and entered the left approach pattern to runway 31 at
the right altitude.
During that maneuver, according to the report from the airport tower controller, the
pilot requested authorisation to cross the airfield and land on runway end 13. Once
authorisation was granted, he performed a short pattern that ended in a left turn at
low height with between 30° or 45° of bank, as if trying to see the runway threshold
he left behind, with his landing gear down and in a landing configuration.
At one point during the manoeuvre, the aircraft’s left wing began to descend and the
aircraft lost height. Despite attempts by the pilot to recover from the departure from
controlled flight by increasing power and managing to climb a bit, it was not enough
and, finally, the aircraft impacted against terrain and caught on fire.
The aircraft slid across the ground, broke the fence surrounding the airport, crossed the
airport ring road, climbed the bank located before the runway threshold 13 and finally
stopped in the strip at the threshold height, about 30 meters from the runway end. The
aircraft caught on fire and was destroyed.

Seems like a landing accident to me.

Mike

[Bradburger]

Badly damaged, but not wrecked?
You seem to have pointed out more incidents than non-incidents.

Taken from the OFMC Accident Report,
According to a witness testimony, when flying into Sabadell airport, the two aircraft,
with the Piper in the lead, began a pass at a low height and in formation along runway
31. Approximately halfway down the runway, the HA-1112-M1L aircraft abandoned
the formation to the left and partially repeated the pattern to perform a pass
along the runway, at a low height and high speed, finishing with a climb with a barrel
roll in the direction of Tarrasa and entered the left approach pattern to runway 31 at
the right altitude.
During that maneuver, according to the report from the airport tower controller, the
pilot requested authorisation to cross the airfield and land on runway end 13. Once
authorisation was granted, he performed a short pattern that ended in a left turn at
low height with between 30° or 45° of bank, as if trying to see the runway threshold
he left behind, with his landing gear down and in a landing configuration.
At one point during the manoeuvre, the aircraft’s left wing began to descend and the
aircraft lost height. Despite attempts by the pilot to recover from the departure from
controlled flight by increasing power and managing to climb a bit, it was not enough
and, finally, the aircraft impacted against terrain and caught on fire.
The aircraft slid across the ground, broke the fence surrounding the airport, crossed the
airport ring road, climbed the bank located before the runway threshold 13 and finally
stopped in the strip at the threshold height, about 30 meters from the runway end. The
aircraft caught on fire and was destroyed.

Seems like a landing accident to me.

Mike

Indeed, an accident that happened as the aircraft was landing although it was still in the air at the time, so it was not actually caused by the 109/Buchon's ground handling issues, which generally seem to be the cause of most of the mishaps to them (war & post war), and I believe it was the case with 'Red 7' a few years back.

I think that report (actually by the Spanish Civil Aviation Accident & Incident Investigation Commission) leaves a lot to be desired in terms of finding out the actual cause of the crash, but that's another story!

Going back to 109/Buchon accidents, I can only recall two in the last 20 odd years in which the aircraft was destroyed, sadly resulting in a fatality, although neither of which can be attributed to it's poor ground handling. G-BOML as mentioned above, & one of the CAF machines, which crashed in in 1988 I think, after engine problems, killing the pilot (Dick Baird?).

Cheers

Paul

[DoraNineFan]

To answer another part of your question on the first flights---that last information that was discussed was that the Dora was disassembled for a thorough inspection of all systems before any flights are attempted. This wasn't indicative of any bad workmanship, but just a precautionary inspection of everything.

Not much other info has been discussed here nor any time frame for flight testing. I would be curious if there will be any permit to fly difficulties similar to what the F-8Ns have been experiencing.

---Also hoping they pick a different paint job, like a late war scheme.

[A2C]

Did they mount the allison inverted? How can the allison have enough power? I think the Jumo had 2000 hp.

[JimH]

With no guns or armor me thinks it will get up and boogie. As far as I know this is the only project the Lauderback brothers are working on so hopefully it won't be more than a year.

jim

[bdk]

Did they mount the allison inverted? How can the allison have enough power? I think the Jumo had 2000 hp.

It is mounted upright with a custom nosecase to put the prop in the right location. Can't answer the power question.

[RMAllnutt]

Thanks for the pics!! One of my friends who flys airshows, finds it "appauling" that the Germans continued to fly the '109 till the end of the war, and that the Spanish would continue building them and use them as late as they did, as well as other countries. He bases his OPINION on many documentaries that always paint the P-51 and Spitfire as absolute king and the German fighters and bombers as the less able evil airplanes of the conflict. The TV shows always seem to paint them in a bad light too, UNLESS it is a program specifically about the 190 or 109etc.. then the programing seems to go the other way. Why the double standard? I saw a video that claimed the 109 couldn't shoot down another fighter beacause it only had a cannon, and the rate of fire was so slow so it could only shoot down bombers!! I also saw on the Military channel, one of the "Experts" say that the B-17 was olny a LOW ALTITUDE bomber because it was vulnierable to flak!! They even get the American stuff messed up once in a while I guess. Of course my friend TOATLLY discounts other opinions such as Capt Eric Browns evaluations stating they are only his opinion!! I think he would be an excellent judge of the various fighters, he having flown more than anyone else! Also the 109 has a super bad rap for groung handeling, but the German pilots (such as Gunther Rall)claim the accidents with them were an excepion and not the norm. Is the 30% number claimed destroyed in landing and takeoffs a little exaggerated? I heard only 5% according to the German figures. How many currently flying 109's and Buchons have wrecked on landing? Why is the Spitfire NEVER critisised for its narrow gear??

No offence, but your friend doesn't sound particularly knowledgeable, ....or bright either, considering his comments about Eric Brown... Eric Brown is one of history's greatest test pilots, and certainly not one to make an idle opinion when evaluating an aircraft. He's also flown more aircraft types than any other human being... so he'd definitely have a very good basis for his reasoning too.

The 109 and 190 were superb aircraft, even at the end of the war. Dozens of German pilots scored more than a hundred victories in them. I think that speaks for itself. That the Germans suffered greater losses in the last couple of years plays very little to the quality of their aircraft designs. It speaks volumes about the quality of training that the later pilots were able to get though.

Cheers,
Richard

[Iclo]

Concerning the accident of Mark Hanna, according his father ( well known and late Ray Hanna) and the British experts who analyse the cause of crash,
After making a low pass, Mark "pull-up" to reach the approach pattern, during this manoeuvre, the slats open, creating local but heavy turbulence.
On final approach, at low speed, the 109 cross its own turbulence and stall.

Regards