Would you donate to keep the Vulcan flying in the USA

[Ontario-Warbird]

Were are the mods??? Seems this thread is out of control with politcal crap.

LOCK it down

Dave

[JDK]

Were are the mods??? Seems this thread is out of control with politcal crap.

Mod post: You told us you'd left. If you want to return, great, I'd like to see you here - but not just popping up to mod-bait and troll.

Rich K; cool it please. I'm sorry you are dealing with a difficult situation - if you need to bring it here, put it up front in the off topic section, rather than using it as an excuse me card. There are plenty of others finding life tough right now.

Everyone - keep it cool and polite please. And when you find yourself starting a post 'you all...' - just don't. There isn't a 'you all' here, thanks, but a diversity of views all to be respected, and if you can't respect it, ignore it.

Thanks.

[bdk]

The Vulcan project is in financial trouble in the UK, with some suggesting it be flown to the US to be supported by rich Americans, American companys and donations from US enthusiasts wanting to see it on the airshow circuit.

What is the level of interest in the Vulcan in the USA, could it be operated viably in the USA with operating costs of $86k per month. could it generate the corporate, private and enthusiasts donations to operate for 12 months?

Why don't rich Britons support it? I really like the Vulcan and would donate to keep one flying in the US as long as it was close enough to see every once in a while.

I'm not sure why some rich American would want to support a Vulcan anyhow. Just out of good will and appreciation of British cold war history? What connection would a Vulcan have to any American companies?

It seems as though folks believe that either America is like the wild west with everyone gunslinging on wooden sidewalks or else Americans are all rich fat cats in three piece suits.

The Vulcan is an interesting aircraft (saw it fly in the U.S. back in the early 70s), but it does not intrigue me enough to donate to keep it in the air.

I have donated to put a C-97 back in the air and several other vintage types, but the Vulcan just doesn't excite me that much.

These are tough economic times and restoring vintage aircraft and keeping them in the air is unfortunately not high on the list of a lot of people's priorities.

[JDK]

Mod post: I've edited several posts causing a pointless argument, and tried to leave the valid points.

I'd appreciate it if everyone can be polite from here on. Any problems, PM a Mod or Scott, don't bait, troll or respond to baits or insults please.

Thanks.

[Firebird]

The Vulcan project is in financial trouble in the UK, with some suggesting it be flown to the US to be supported by rich Americans, American companys and donations from US enthusiasts wanting to see it on the airshow circuit.

What is the level of interest in the Vulcan in the USA, could it be operated viably in the USA with operating costs of $86k per month. could it generate the corporate, private and enthusiasts donations to operate for 12 months?

Why don't rich Britons support it? I really like the Vulcan and would donate to keep one flying in the US as long as it was close enough to see every once in a while.

I'm not sure why some rich American would want to support a Vulcan anyhow. Just out of good will and appreciation of British cold war history? What connection would a Vulcan have to any American companies?

It seems as though folks believe that either America is like the wild west with everyone gunslinging on wooden sidewalks or else Americans are all rich fat cats in three piece suits.

Probably 99% of those of us here in the UK don't believe that the Vulcan will or even can come to the USA, and neither does the OP, but there is a very small minority that mistakingly feel this is a viable option, and are very persistant in not being realistic about it, so I know why Mark has put this poll up, and Mark is getting exactly the answers he expected

[bdk]

...so I know why Mark has put this poll up, and Mark is getting exactly the answers he expected

I feel so used!

The Vulcan isn't exactly my dream, but I do appreciate the fact that it is the dream of some, and I certainly wouldn't want to discourage them from trying.

[Firebird]

...so I know why Mark has put this poll up, and Mark is getting exactly the answers he expected

I feel so used!

The Vulcan isn't exactly my dream, but I do appreciate the fact that it is the dream of some, and I certainly wouldn't want to discourage them from trying.

Sadly, there were far too many dreamers involved with this project from day one.....the cards were always stacked against it. It was never financially viable from the beginning, the idea of being able to rebuild, and fly something as expensive as a Vulcan from private/public donations alone was obsurd.
The technicalities of doing it were never a real stumbling block (altough certain critical spares were certainley going to be at some point), it was the shear cash consumption.

[bdk]

Sadly, there were far too many dreamers involved with this project from day one.....the cards were always stacked against it. It was never financially viable from the beginning, the idea of being able to rebuild, and fly something as expensive as a Vulcan from private/public donations alone was obsurd.

The fact is that they did it, so it must have been viable to that point at least. Is the current economy the only reason you feel they can't do it again/more?

[Firebird]

Sadly, there were far too many dreamers involved with this project from day one.....the cards were always stacked against it. It was never financially viable from the beginning, the idea of being able to rebuild, and fly something as expensive as a Vulcan from private/public donations alone was obsurd.

The fact is that they did it, so it must have been viable to that point at least. Is the current economy the only reason you feel they can't do it again/more?

No the current economy is a bit of a red herring IMHO.

And done what?

They have spent over £6m of lottery money and public/private donations to rebuild an aircraft they can't (and never could) afford to fly....I don't see that as being much of an achievement.
The engineering isn't the achievement, it was effectively just a Vulcan major with a few extras, which they have had to pay an external certified engineering company to do and sign off as the criteria to get BAe/CAA approval.

It's flown 29 times, and that includes air test and transist flights around the UK to airshows which because of technical reasons and contraints of their operation they were not able to display at everyone they attended
They have no money left to fly it anymore. It costs £50k per month just to keep it on the ground...!!!!!

These things were designed for operating by one of the major airforces of the world with a multi-billion pound budget, not by drip fed public donations.

If the 'business model' wasn't sound in terms of a guaranteed budget to fly it, what was the point of spending the money to rebuild it? Just on the hope that some rich benefactor might come along and spend £1.5m per year to keep it in the air?
As soon as it was certified, the clock was ticking on the lifed parts, and as I mentioned they need £50k per month just to keep it on the ground. The engine life issue has also meant that it's displays have been very 'tame' compared to it's RAF service days which everyone remembers, and there was always going to be the possiblity that, because of this interest was going to wane very quickly, because of people that have never seen it before getting a huge anti-climax and wonder what all the fuss is about.

As far as I'm concerned, and I was saying this 5+ years ago, along with many others, getting it in the air was always going to be the easy bit, keeping it there was going to be nigh on impossible......even before the current financial climate, which is sadly going to be their scapegoat, rather than their original failed business plan and mis-management.

It is a huge shame, but, the realists will likely be proved right instead of the dreamers.

[JDK]

Just a couple of comments on Firebird's response.

No the current economy is a bit of a red herring IMHO.

Complete red herring.

There were two major cash injections I was aware of, the Lottery Fund original and a donation by a private British millionaire. In both cases there were not donations to guarantee any operation, just to move the restoration project forward.

At no stage has there been either a realistic sniff of a genuine sponsor for a period of operation, and no likely business plan seen to catch one.

The engineering isn't the achievement, it was effectively just a Vulcan major with a few extras, which they have had to pay an external certified engineering company to do and sign off as the criteria to get BAe/CAA approval.

Tricky point. On a quantifiable basis, it is the most expensive, complex and advanced type to have been restored to fly in the UK. For that, the engineers and engineering management deserve plaudits, IMHO. I don't think restoring a grounded (arguably servicable) four engine nuclear bomber isn't 'an achievement'.

Coupled with that was on excellent pitch that got Heritage Lottery Funding (HLF) and BAe and the CAA to agree to the project. In all three cases this was an unprecedented success, in an area where all three had said a big 'no' to previous, less challenging requests.

That's three major achievements that have pushed the boundaries of what is possible in the UK.

However, their (inevitable looking) failure is not a good precedent. Both BAe and the CAA are likely to see the bigger aviation picture as the project hasn't failed technically. But the HLF will note and remember a flying project that failed to deliver against the education (etc.) mandate they got the money for. This may (or may not) count against future projects, but it's a poor start by the flying aviation preservation community in getting funding from Britain's biggest cash-pot.

If the 'business model' wasn't sound in terms of a guaranteed budget to fly it, what was the point of spending the money to rebuild it? Just on the hope that some rich benefactor might come along and spend £1.5m per year to keep it in the air?

Exactly. The element of Dickensian 'something will turn up' implicit in the business plan throughout was one reason my hands stayed in my pockets. And it was never going to fly on pocket money.

The engine life issue has also meant that it's displays have been very 'tame' compared to it's RAF service days which everyone remembers, and there was always going to be the possiblity that, because of this interest was going to wane very quickly, because of people that have never seen it before getting a huge anti-climax and wonder what all the fuss is about.

"Have you seen the Vulcan?" Yes, I did thanks, back when the RAF threw it around the sky, and I quickly learnt that this wasn't going to be anything like that was.

There are some nuggets of achievement in the mix, but, unless there's a post 11th hour reprieve, it's been an expensive failure, throwing a negative light on the preservation movement.

Speaking as a professional manager, I wouldn't trust the current management to clean toilets properly. Their PR, and marketing, and harnessing of enthusiast support also stink.

However the engineers who succeeded and risked livelihoods and sense for a unusual job satisfaction deserve to be recognised for putting their family's income where their hearts are.

Just my opinion.

[6trn4brn]

Hmmmm......well, being one of the only two to say that I would support the Vulcan here in the states with a $50 ongoing donation, guess I had best splain myself, huh

Additional question to the one Mark started...Would you donate to get and keep a B-58 flying???

I sort of think this was a fantasty type question to begin with. Ya know, like Nathan and I are gonna get a B-36 flying with our lottery winnings I would love to see, hear and smell a Vulcan fly! I can't imagine how much work those fellas had to do to get her in the sky, but out of respect for all of their hard work, heck yeah I would pitch in 50 bucks. For the same reason that I always put something in the boot/bomb or whatever other type of collection device is set-up in front of planes at airshows.

Sorry that I am not as deep-thinking as a lot of you fellas here. Simple is as simple does (Forest Gump?)