Warbird Information Exchange

I'm curious,

do warbird owners/pilots often play (dog)fight with other warbirds? Are there times when Mr. X says to Mr. Y.... "Hop in your P-40, and I'll go up in my P-51 and we'll see who can shoot down who"?

I know there are some "Aerial Combat" companies out there that do what I'm talking about, but how often, if at all anymore do warbirds take part in such things?

I suppose it would be classified as aerobatic maneuvers so you'd want to steer clear of busy areas and find a nice quiet corner of the world. Where does it take place if it does occur?

Anyways, this question goes out to anyone who partakes, could partake, or who's heard of such things.

Cheers,

David

We used to do that with the T-6s all the time. The standing joke was to meet over the dam at a certain time and a certain altitude. Well the time was adhered to, but the altitude never was. If we agreed at 4,000 ft, the other might be at 5,000, of course we were at 8,000...............
In dog fighting, as in any type of fighting, If you ain't cheating, you ain't winning.................

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Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
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We used to do it at night using landing lights for guns. When I came in at his six and a bit high and can see the shadow of his head on the instrument panel, that's a confirmed kill. He can't go anywhere without me following.

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

"Hop in your P-40, and I'll go up in my P-51 and we'll see who can shoot down who"?

Funny.........I have heard those exact words before!

JC,

so who shot down who?

-David

I bet you have, and who won?

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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

Benjamin Franklin, American Statesman, Scientist, Philosopher

Guns Guns Guns...




We've got the altitude now!

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"There are two types of people here; airshow whores and airshow prostitutes. The whores, like you and I, do airshow stuff for free, whereas the prostitutes are paid" - Reg Urschler

Now that's what I'm talking about. That looks awesome!

Obviously it's not real combat (or is it?), so how sparingly do you use your airplanes?

What kind of guidelines do you have to avoid accidents and collisions?

Minimum altitudes? "Stop Immediately" code words (ie. No duff)? And how much do you push your engines?

Those pictures remind me of what it looked like when I used to play microsoft combat simulator on my computer... but something tells me the way you do it is more fun.

Cheers,

David

"taka take taka taka taka taka taka"

Like Matt, we used to do it in the T-6's all the time as well, along with whatever else was in "Indian Country" at the time (Sukhoi's, RV's, Yak 55's & 52's, Pitts, etc.). Heck, we even had a Sea Fury vs. RV-4 dogfight once. But probably one of the coolest dogfights I witnessed was at Breckenridge, when a local Wildcat jumped an FG-1D Corsair. The furrball didn't last long, as the Corsair driver decided to fight the Wildcat's fight by trying to turn with him. About two to three turns later (even with the Corsair trying to add a notch of flaps to tighten the turn radius....too little, too late), the fight was over. Nevertheless, it was cool to watch.

Oh, and Randy Haskin, you may find this one interesting......We had an F-16 driver come through the hangar one time that was, let's say..."very" confident in himself. When we took him to lunch, we joked about how I used to get spanked every time I fought the T-6 against the Extra 300L. This guy just went on and on about how he could just whip that Extra (even though he'd never flown either aircraft before), and that I was merely "doing it all wrong." Soooooo, upon returning to the hangar, we had a very thorough briefing, followed by strapping this guy in the back of the T-6 (with me up front) and went out with the Extra to mix it up a bit. Now, I won't bore y'all with the details of each fight (there were three), but It took no time at all for him to be looking backwards in order to see where the Extra was. The scary part was during our last fight, when the hero tried to go vertical with the Extra, ignoring anything I had to suggest over the intercom. Just as the airplane started to feel "mushy," this clown pulled the stick back further (as if to attempt to point the nose straight up to vertical) and slammed the throttle to the stop before I could react. The resulting snap into a spin had him screaming like a schoolgirl. After recovering the airplane for him, I called "knock it off," and the Extra joined up with us and we went back to the barn. Not one more word was uttered from my back seater on the way home.

So, with all of that being said...Randy, have you ever had the chance to do any 1v1 while at the controls of anything "vintage?" I ask, because I know you can fly the modern stuff and you obviously appreciate the old Warbirds as well. Clearly the differences in how they fly is huge, but does your modern day training have any relevance to how you would fly approach a dogfight in a T-6, Mustang, or whatever? It's obvious though, that this F-16 guy didn't have a clue.

Gary

There's a ton of relevance -- the basics and tactics are all the same. Essentially, nothing new has been invented since Eddie Rickenbacker. That's a little bit of an overstatement, but the philosophy is the same regardless of how big and powerful fighters become.

What the F-16 driver forgot, though, is that knowledge of your particular airplane's performance is the absolute cornerstone to being able to execute those tactics.

From what you're saying, this F-16 dude had no idea of the turn performance, P-sub-S, corner velocitiy, etc of the T-6. He was trying to fight it like he fought in the F-16...and that's just plain dumb. Obviously there is a Grand Canyon's worth of difference between the airplanes.

Not all airplanes fight alike.

It is just the same way that I'd be an idiot if I walked up to a T-6 and said, "I can fly this ol' thing...hell, I have 1,500 hours in the F-15, so this thing should be a snap!" We all know that I'd end up in a ditch a few minutes later with a bent airplane and at best a bruised ego. This is essentially what our esteemed Viper driver did, just while airborne. The result is predictably the same.

So, it sounds to me like this gentleman got the come-uppance he deserved.

I think the difference with me is that I realize that a bunch of time horsing a jet around doesn't endow me with some God-given grace that makes me an expert in anything with wings. It just means I have a bunch of time in a jet.

Unfortunately, I have very little stick time in anything vintage, much less had the opportunity to go out and wrap one up. Tell you what, though...before I did it, I'd make sure I knew a thing or two about the airplane I was doing it in.

Thanks for that input, Randy. We'll have to get you in the T-6 sometime.
Gary

This is great guys, keep on sharing!!!

So, it sounds like this activity is quite popular... haha.

It gets me wondering, how does each "session" start? Is it usually a "Meet at location X at XX:XXhrs, altitude optional" Or is set up more like "You're the aggressor, and you're the defender, and we'll go from there"?

I'm also interested to hear what Randy has to say. And, how things are organized for military training like "Operation Maple Flag" etc.

Cheers,

David

P.S. I bet it would be quite fun to see some WWI replicas duking it out. Slow and scary...

Where to even start with that one. A HUGE topic that would take a long time to go into detail.

There are many different ways to set up and execute air-to-air training, and each of them have specific sets of rules and methodology.

Essentially we use a building block approach to train, starting with 1 v 1, then moving on to 2 v 1, then 2 v 2, then 4 v 4, then 4 v X. Beyond that we get into Large Force Exercises (LFEs) and beyond that we get Flag Exercies.

Names of stuff:
1 v 1 = Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM)
2 v 1 = Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM)
2 v 2 = Air Combat Tactics (ACT)
4 v x = Offensive Counter Air (OCA) or Defensive Counter Air (DCA)

The 1 v 1 and 2 v 1 are generally "within visual range" types of setups that focus on the actual stick-and-rudder maneuvering, while the others are "beyond visual range" setups that focus on sensor and weapon employment as well as tactics.

We have numerous training rules that we have to abide by. These rules establish "rules of the road", safe haven altitudes, procedures on what to do if you lose sight of the other aircraft, etc. There are additional standards on how the fights are set up, what weapons may be used, what constitutes a kill, etc. There are literally pages and pages of this stuff that must be well known by all players.

Here's a most basic setup for a BFM fight. In this case, it is a "6K offensive BFM" setup, meaning that the "blue" fighter will start in an offensive position 6,000' (1 mile) behind the bandit.



There are of course all different kinds of variations on this, all depending on the particular learning point that you are trying to practice. In this case, at 6,000' you are just at the forward edge of being able to shoot an AMRAAM, you are in the zone to shoot a Sidewinder, and you're not quite able to shoot 'em with the gun yet.

Anyway, that's just a taste.

When we were doing airshows as the Cactus Squadron, We would do shows at Luke AFB, and if we had open seats on the return flights, we would fill them with F-16 drivers. We sure had fun with them, they don;t know what thier feet are for, and we flew very tight formations, usually with wing overlap, they would get nervous flying that close.

_________________
Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
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