Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:42 am
To continue the 'off-topic' discussion of the 'RAVENS' another excellent book, while "fiction" (and I use the qoutes deliberately) is the 'LAOTION FRAGMENTS'; the author was a Raven (and his name escapes me at the moment -CRS-) absolutely fascinating.
As I alluded to in my above post, I flew with a Raven in T-34 'mock combat' at 'Sky Warriors' out of Atlanta; he was a great guy, told some good stories. One of his 'accomplishments?' was the ability to eat a glass......and this is now a family tradition carried on by his daughter.
He was lost in a T-6 accident about a year after I flew with him, and I have a special place in my heart for him as we were born on the same day in 1942.
As I alluded to in my above post, I flew with a Raven in T-34 'mock combat' at 'Sky Warriors' out of Atlanta; he was a great guy, told some good stories. One of his 'accomplishments?' was the ability to eat a glass......and this is now a family tradition carried on by his daughter.
He was lost in a T-6 accident about a year after I flew with him, and I have a special place in my heart for him as we were born on the same day in 1942.
lost
Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:37 am
Dave, I am trying to figure out who the man I met was. It seems to me he was lost a few years later in some kind of accident, might have been around 1998, can't really remember that part. If you recall the name of the Raven you knew, please post it and also the date he was lost. It is kind of driving me nuts. Thanks
I tried to find a biography of author Robbins on Wikipedia, and don't find one, only the reference to his books. There is an entry about the Ravens. It says they were A F pilots who were "sheepdipped", that is given new identities as "civilians" to serve in Laos. They were under the Air Attache, who was under the ambassador to Laos. I don't know who this was supposed to fool, maybe the US press. I'm sure the opposing NVA forces knew who was fighting them.
The guy I met told of tank battles in Laos, almost like something from WWII. I think he said he mostly flew the Cessna 185?, but one time was of flying a T-28 and having to land at a regular U S base for fuel. I think that's when he met Sam Donaldson. Their normal airstrip was small, and primitive, and losses were heavy. He said they lost about 5 of the 7 guys in his group.
I tried to find a biography of author Robbins on Wikipedia, and don't find one, only the reference to his books. There is an entry about the Ravens. It says they were A F pilots who were "sheepdipped", that is given new identities as "civilians" to serve in Laos. They were under the Air Attache, who was under the ambassador to Laos. I don't know who this was supposed to fool, maybe the US press. I'm sure the opposing NVA forces knew who was fighting them.
The guy I met told of tank battles in Laos, almost like something from WWII. I think he said he mostly flew the Cessna 185?, but one time was of flying a T-28 and having to land at a regular U S base for fuel. I think that's when he met Sam Donaldson. Their normal airstrip was small, and primitive, and losses were heavy. He said they lost about 5 of the 7 guys in his group.
Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:50 am
Bill -
His name was D. Craig Morrison, and I can't recall the date of his accident. It involved an engne failure on a T-6, and in an attempt to save the aircraft he chose to land wheels down on a lakeside beach, but the airplane nosed over.
His picture is in Robbins' book, and he was mentioned in another book about the Hmoung - I can't recall the title. He flew the O-1 and the T-28, never mentioned the 185. I'm sure he was not interviewed by Sam Donaldson.
I have Robbins book - I'll look through it for any mention of a Sam Donaldson interview. and Robbins was definately not a Raven.
As menttioned above, I think the only book about them written by a Raven was 'LAOTION FRAGMENTS' and the author's name is slowly coming back to me - last name was Pratt, first name might have been Richard. I'll try to check that also, the book is in my storage shed.
EDIT- Just checked, author was John Clark Pratt
EDIT AGAIN - Just saw 'lady02pilot' mention "Quoth the Raven" by Jim Roper, so there were at least 2 books written by Ravens - now I've got to try and find a copy of it...........
His name was D. Craig Morrison, and I can't recall the date of his accident. It involved an engne failure on a T-6, and in an attempt to save the aircraft he chose to land wheels down on a lakeside beach, but the airplane nosed over.
His picture is in Robbins' book, and he was mentioned in another book about the Hmoung - I can't recall the title. He flew the O-1 and the T-28, never mentioned the 185. I'm sure he was not interviewed by Sam Donaldson.
I have Robbins book - I'll look through it for any mention of a Sam Donaldson interview. and Robbins was definately not a Raven.
As menttioned above, I think the only book about them written by a Raven was 'LAOTION FRAGMENTS' and the author's name is slowly coming back to me - last name was Pratt, first name might have been Richard. I'll try to check that also, the book is in my storage shed.
EDIT- Just checked, author was John Clark Pratt
EDIT AGAIN - Just saw 'lady02pilot' mention "Quoth the Raven" by Jim Roper, so there were at least 2 books written by Ravens - now I've got to try and find a copy of it...........
Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:20 pm
Although John Clark Pratt was a USAF pilot, he was not a Raven. He was also an AF historian who was charged with interviewing Gen Vang Pao for a classified AF study. The CIA held him for several hours checking his security clearances and then allowed him to go to Long Tieng where he was delayed longer and then told Vang Pao had left the area. This story can be found in the Raven book by Robbins.
Craig Morrison was indeed a Raven and was killed in a more recent year. (I just can't remember...I too have CRS) I had the privilege on meeting and talking his sister as one of the early Reunions to which I was invited. I cannot remember the year of that meeting; however, I thought it was within a year or so after his death but here again CRS.
Craig Morrison was indeed a Raven and was killed in a more recent year. (I just can't remember...I too have CRS) I had the privilege on meeting and talking his sister as one of the early Reunions to which I was invited. I cannot remember the year of that meeting; however, I thought it was within a year or so after his death but here again CRS.
Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm
Oooppsss I forgot....another author who was a Raven is Darrel Whitcomb who wrote "Rescue of Bat 21." He was a participant in that rescue but this was not during his Raven tour. Another tour flying OV-10s. Darrel's book about Bat 21 is much more factual than the one written by William Anderson on which the movie was based. If anyone enjoyed the movie or Anderson's book, I suggest reading Whitcomb's as it comes as close to reality as declassification standards allow.
Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:21 pm
Darn - Thought Pratt was a Raven; good book in any case.
Now I've got the urge to go re-read 'Fragments' and 'Ravens' - might as well, it's snowing here, not much else to do.....
Now I've got the urge to go re-read 'Fragments' and 'Ravens' - might as well, it's snowing here, not much else to do.....
Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:26 pm
Dave Downs wrote:Darn - Thought Pratt was a Raven; good book in any case.
Now I've got the urge to go re-read 'Fragments' and 'Ravens' - might as well, it's snowing here, not much else to do.....
Dave, thanks for mentioning Laotian Fragments. I have not read that one and it does look to be very interesting. I will get it soon.
We don't have snow but who knows, I might need an excuse to escape from doing the annual on my plane. Cold hangar, grease, oil, dirt, screws that will not cooperate vs reading a good book....hmmmm...LOL
Craig
Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:24 pm
The name John Pratt doesn't ring a bell, but Craig Morrison May be familiar. I do like a good mystery, but I am going to phone some T-34 folks and see who else remembers.
My guess is that the man I met was a Raven, as he said, but it was not Robbins. Somehow I connected the two. We'll see what I come up with.
My guess is that the man I met was a Raven, as he said, but it was not Robbins. Somehow I connected the two. We'll see what I come up with.
Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:31 pm
Darryl's a good guy. Most people don't know that the Bat 21 incidents involved OV-10s not O-2s.
Long Tien was the Ravens major base.
The guys who were "sheep dipped" had to have had at least 6 months doing FAC work in Viet Nam before they were approached to join the Ravens. While they served as Ravens they were shown as having left the AF. At the end of their Raven tour they left Laos where they resurfaced as USAF officers who had continued to advance in rank and pay with their contemporaries.
I believe that Air America flew the 185s though there might have been one or two show up at Long Tien for Air Attache use for cross country transport work.
Long Tien was the Ravens major base.
The guys who were "sheep dipped" had to have had at least 6 months doing FAC work in Viet Nam before they were approached to join the Ravens. While they served as Ravens they were shown as having left the AF. At the end of their Raven tour they left Laos where they resurfaced as USAF officers who had continued to advance in rank and pay with their contemporaries.
I believe that Air America flew the 185s though there might have been one or two show up at Long Tien for Air Attache use for cross country transport work.
Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:40 am
The U-17s had rockets mounted also.
Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:50 am
A good, not to in-depth, general overview book on A/W in Vietnam
woud be: AIR WAR IN VIETNAM by Phil Chinnery, 1987.
Great photos and a very informative intro. describing how the
whole thing started fromthe end of WW2 onwards.
Some sections / photos on "Spads" as well.
woud be: AIR WAR IN VIETNAM by Phil Chinnery, 1987.
Great photos and a very informative intro. describing how the
whole thing started fromthe end of WW2 onwards.
Some sections / photos on "Spads" as well.