skyraider pilots

[Dave Downs]

For more on the RAVENS go here:

http://www.ravens.org/

[Ken]

George J Marrett's excellent "Cheating Death" covers his Skyraider tour.

As mentioned, skyraider.org is worth hours of visiting.

[Bill Greenwood]

LadyO2, If you look carefully at my post, you can see a question mark that I wrote behind the word CIA. It shows pretty clearly that I wasn't certain that he or they worked for the CIA. I don't see that it makes much difference to his book or his story however. I definitely remember author Robbins telling a bunch of us T-34 people about the Sam Donaldson questions. He said they wore civilian clothes, their missions were secret and they were in Laos some.
His book talks of the secret war, that is even in the subtitle on the cover.

And if you were under the impression that I was somehow asking for your opinion, you were mistaken. Of course you have a right to state it.

[Obergrafeter]

No they didn't work for the Park Dept., they worked for the Ambassador to Laos. Nothing to do with the CIA other than both organizations used each other to save each others butt when things got rough............and to save US and other friendly troops and airmen. The biggest casualty of this "secret" war were the Mong who protected the airmen on the ground. Like Karen said a finer bunch of fellows you will ever meet, and we are privalaged to speak with them once a year at their reunion. P.S. Karen you can give me your "informed" opinion anytime...............worth way more than someones uninformed ramblings.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ober, as for "uniformed ramblings", I and other people at the T-34 gathering heard author Robbins speak in person. Did you? The book reviews on Google refer to the "CIA'S secret air force" and "The CIA ran a secret war using Hmong tribesmen and U S air force" pilots. I haven't read the entire book, have you? I think I may get it.

Their activities in Laos were secret, that is clear in his book and even on the cover. What real difference does it make to the story if they were actually CIA or AF or employed by the ambassador?

I would be interested to know if you have any facts to support your ambassador story. It is not mentioned in any of the reviews of his book that I saw on Goggle?

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[LadyO2Pilot]

I have read the book.......after getting to know some of the Ravens 8 years ago. I had already participated in one of their reunions at that point when I read it. I heard some of the stories from the "horse's mouth" prior to reading the book. I have heard many more since. The Robbins book I have is autographed by the Ravens who participate in the Reunions often on the pages where their names might be mentioned.

I socialize with several of them several times during the year and have been invited to their reunion annually for many years. Robbins book while very interesting and informative is not always the complete story or the accurate one. I will tend to believe the guys that were there and did the deeds than an author who may or may not have taken liberties with some of the information given or not thoroughly given. Was their mission secret....yes....did they wear civilian clothes and not have their military ID...yes.....were they part of the CIA...no. The facts about the Ambassador come from the guys that lived it.

[Bill Greenwood]

Lady O2, you write, " I tend to believe the guys who were there and did the deeds", instead of an author.

Are you saying that the author Christopher Robbins was not there and did not do the deeds, that he was not a raven? I have never heard anyone question his accounts before. He had some interesting and authentic looking photos and his stories certainly had a ring of truth, and I think he lectured at Oshkosh on this subject also.

[LadyO2Pilot]

Bill....Christopher Robbins was not a Raven. He interviewed many and researched their mission as he did when he also wrote a book about Air America. Yes he has photos, I'm sure, provided by the men who were there. His accounts are not the whole story in some cases. Am I questioning him....no.....it may be he was not given complete information or he took liberties with what he was given. When the book was written, there were some who still felt they were bound to secrecy...ie still classified material. All in all it was a very informative book which I enjoyed thoroughly. He told the story well but it is not the whole one and I still maintain that I will know the real story from the Ravens themselves.

[Ztex]

A bit feisty today aren't we?

Let's tray and stick to the question at hand a leave the misquotes and innuendo out of the conversations..

Thanks

[Ken]

On topic, there is also Escape from Laos by Dieter Dengler. For the F-105 perspective, any of the books by Jack Broughton would be worth your while.


Off topic,

I and other people at the T-34 gathering heard author Robbins speak in person. .... I haven't read the entire book, have you? I think I may get it.

To a 3rd party observer it seems like you were eager for a confrontation - in this case, with someone who's not only read the book, but has access to the Raven community. IMHO, I just don't get it. There's alot of worthwhile sharing of info and photos on WIX and it's incredibly disappointing when the tone turns dark - particularly in a case like this where you could have simply said, "Well, this is my best recollection" and left it at that.

There have been plenty of posts on WIX by folks requesting an end to the negative tone. You won't hear that from me ... but that doesn't mean someone can't throw a flag on the play when there's been a foul.

Let's see this thread get back on track.

[LadyO2Pilot]

As Ken suggested, back on track .......sort of.......another good book about the Ravens is "Quoth the Raven" by Jim Roper (and yes he's an actual Raven)...very moving story.

All my other book suggestions would be about FACs and not the Sandys / Skyraiders.....but I do know the FACs really liked working with them as mentioned before.

[Bill Greenwood]

Lady O2, I may have been wrong. I may even be confusing two different books, and/or people.

Some years ago, a guy came to the T-34 group. As I recall his stories and photos he was a Raven and relating his OWN experiences, and photos. I don't remember him being just an author writing about someone else. Now, I may have been wrong then, gotten the wrong impression, or the time, perhaps over 10 years may have confused me. I recall looking at the book he wrote, and it seems to me that his title, his cover and his name are familiar. I also thought, less sure of this, that he was lost in a non aviation accident a few years later.

So, I may well be mistaken. If so, I don't know where or how at this point, but I will continue to try to find out.

In thinking about it further, it is also possible that the guy who came to the T-34 group was a Raven, and later another man, ie Robbins wrote the book. I notice the book date is 1995 which seems about right.

[Obergrafeter]

H e l l I was going for a lock by now, sorry Karen but I tried. Don't get none of them negative waves going.

[Tulio]

LadyO2 (Karen),

Do you have a copy of the "Edgar Allan Poe Literary Society´s" songbook?

If not, I could make a copy of mine, and send it to you.

Saludos,

Tulio

[LadyO2Pilot]

Yes, I do, Tulio......somewhere in my books. Great songs, some a bit irreverent, that we sing yearly with gusto. Interestingly most of the other FAC reunion groups sing lots of the same songs although at times somewhat modified to their group or the aircraft they flew. It's always a rousing good time.

Thank you so much for the offer though.