P-47D Dottie Mae Update 12/15/2008

[mlenoch]

Jack Croul comes from the Ferrari world prior to his involvement in warbirds. He has two fabulous Ferrari frame up restorations that he campaigns around the world. These two cars were stripped to bare bones in the process of being 'restored'. The old original paint, wiring, tubes, etc. were removed & replaced on these Ferraris to produce two fabulous fresh-new vintage Ferraris. No question, they are beautiful cars and are both regularly displayed and driven to the delight of the public.

My concern is if this will be the same process with this P-47. What will happen to all the removed parts that are historically significant? Will he keep them? Can we buy them? Will they be documented before being painted over.....for the sake of future historian-restoration shops? (yeah, I know, I've been spending too much time with Mike VadeBonCouer!)

There is a movement within the Ferrari community that argues this very same point also: do I strip the car and give a beautiful new paint job OR do I keep the old paint with all the dings & chips it got at the 1954 LeMans race? They have this similar discussion going on. Vintage Ferraris have been mostly repainted, but some do survive in their original colors and equipment.
Just my 2 cents again,
VL

[JohnTerrell]

The limited amount of footage included within the program, showing what excellent condition the aircraft is in after just the least bit of cleaning, was quite intriguing! After watching the show, I think it was easier to get a better understanding of its condition, than the photos that have been up on the web for the past year or two - which I think are a bit misleading, due to the silt and calcium deposits that look like corrosion but aren't at all.

The more regular pilot of Dottie Mae was actually Lt. Larry Kuhl, not mentioned within the show, and Dottie Mae was his wife at the time, of whom he named the particular aircraft after. I too wish that there could have been some mention of this.

[Jack Cook]

I try the get the info to answer some of these questions.
All the pictures I've posted are new with he last batch taken earlier this week.
I'll post more tomorrow.

[gregv]

I for one am happy that this aircraft is being cared for, and can only hope that a responsible and, as the English would say, "sympathetic" restoration is carried out. I shudder to think what would have happened had some "salvage enthusiast" gotten hold of this in the 50's and raised it with hooks and ropes, to display it on some oil drums before scrapping it (sound familiar? think B-17's). Or if the military had used it as a rescue/salvage training operation in the 70's, raising it nicely with floatation bags but then stripping it out and mounting it on a pole in front of the local base to rot. Or if had succumbed to some dredging operation for a new wharf or something....

Here's hoping & looking forward to a jaw-dropping bar-raising airworthy restoration using as much original material as is humanly possible, and saving the rest for posterity. And at least we can be reasonably assured that it won't be sporting quasi-AVG markings....

greg v.

[mlenoch]

Yup......very glad it is out of the muck.
VL

[bdk]

Just glad that "Uncle Bob" will get a chance to be involved in the restoration.

Surprisingly most of the engine is probably in airworthy condition after a little cleaning (besides the dissolved/missing nosecase and reduction gearing.

[A2C]

do I strip the car and give a beautiful new paint job OR do I keep the old paint with all the dings & chips it got at the 1954 LeMans race?

It depends on what you want out of it. As for the P-47, I would sell all the old radios, and obsolete stuff on ebay. They are just deadweight.

Last edited by A2C on Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

I would sell all the old radios, and obsolete stuff on ebay.

I think they're already on craig's list

[DB2]

There is a movement within the Ferrari community that argues this very same point also: do I strip the car and give a beautiful new paint job OR do I keep the old paint with all the dings & chips it got at the 1954 LeMans race?

I follow the market for (European) collector cars quite closely, and in the last couple years solid cars with "patina" have seemingly begun to outpace fully restored cars in value. A large fraction of vintage Ferraris were restored (some shoddily) during the early 90's boom, so obviously well-maintained originals are a bit scarce and people always want what few others can have.

However, for the cars that have only recently accelerated in value, original, unmolested/unrestored cars are definitely commanding a premium. The most obvious market are Porsches, where completely original, fully-documented 356s and pre-74 911s will almost always command a higher price than a fully restored car. The attitude in the Porsche world is that anyone can pay to restore a car to like-new, but it takes dedication to find and preserve an original car.

For higher-end collector cars, e.g. Bugattis or Bentleys, "sympathetic" restorations that leave the paint chips and worn seats are becoming the norm, as opposed to full-blown "frame-off" restorations. A lot of this is driven by the increase in people actually using their cars in rallies etc, as opposed to trailering them around.

I for one would like to see more "originality" preserved on airplanes, but, of course, when compared to cars, knowing the aircraft is safe is of much higher importance.

[mlenoch]

Thanks for mentioning the term 'sympathetic restoration'. I am amazed how well received these survivor autos are becoming. Several months ago, a prominent vintage magazine feature a sports car on its cover, just as it was found in the barn - rust, rotten seats, damaged paint - yet all factory original from the late 40s. The article said the owner would not dare to do a frame off restoration, but only rebuild the running gears to enable it to move on its own - original - power.
It is very interesting to see how much the vintage auto world parallels vintage aircraft, the obvious exceptions being safety of flight equipment.
Thx for your message,
VL

[mustangdriver]

I know some hate when I compare my car to aircraft but the same was done with the restoration of a General Lee Charger. It was a real show car that had some scratches in the paint and scuffs in the interrior that was all from the actors getting in and out through the windows hundreds of times. The car was left that way and tours the shows as a very original General Lee.

[A2C]

The article said the owner would not dare to do a frame off restoration, but only rebuild the running gears to enable it to move on its own - original - power.

Whenever I see this sort of stuff mentioned, I think of the lady on tv who keeps the original tag on her hat.

or a story in college called "A portrait of Emily", she couldn't let go of the past, so she wanted to keep her mom's corpse in the basement in the best condition possible.

I think one other thing comes to mind, like people who do hoarding, and will not throw anything out, because it has some sort of memory attached to it.

Much like my grandmom used to say, don't save junk..Live in the present..

[mlenoch]

From A2C:
Much like my grandmom used to say, don't save junk..Live in the present..

That's what Kingman was for. Sigh.
VL

Very interesting conversation, my take is always the same. I'm much more interested in flying and operable historical artifacts than anything that just sits there and makes you wonder what it must have looked like flying and operable. This P-47 is certainly a time capsule and has some great historical value, but where do you rank it to the likes of Flak Bait, Swoose, MB? .... And are we sure this plane was the last European theater aircraft lost? Is that what I understand about this P-47? .... Is this proven, or a theory?

[mlenoch]

My 2 cents (not Canadian).......
I sure don't mind Dottie to fly, but all that time capsule stuff, I'd sure like to see either preserved OR documented. When will we get another chance to see untouched original factory/unit markings and equipment?
Must be a happy medium somewhere......
Thx,
VL