Bendix turret?

[astixjr]

Taigh and I must have hit the "Post" button at about the same time. I only saw his post after I came back to WIX from a search for some images of Swamp Ghost's ball turret. Well maybe it's not a Bendix lower remote control turret like the early B-25s had, No, it's even stranger than that and probably more rare. It's not even a ball turret. It's an upside down upper turret with a remote sighting station. Be honest, how many of you guys actually knew about this? If this had been a bar bet, I would have lost it for sure. I know a few so called "B-17 experts" who would probably flunk this bit of early B-17 trivia also. The Swamp Ghost page IDs it as a Bendix so I wonder if that's wrong or did Bendix have something to do with the design?

http://www.theswampghost.com/photos/200 ... eview.html


Now, can anyone post a WWII era photo image (not from a manual) that clearly shows this type of early B-17 lower turret? The first person who manages to post an image gets a free A-2 data plate and ball turret control box. I'll pay the shipping to the lower 48 only.





Ready, Set, Go!

[Taigh Ramey]

Shamelessly stolen from Aeroweb:

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/boeing/b-17e.htm



Can I picky and ask for a green control box?

Oh man this is soooo much better than a pony!

Last edited by Taigh Ramey on Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Taigh Ramey]

Hey Albert,

What do I get for second place?

[Nathan]

My suggestion is to go to a pretty reliable source

David Aiken and John Lundstrom are not reliable? I am sorry for being wrong. It sucks when you learn something and put so much research into something only to be found your wrong later down the road.

Darn...

I wanna know why most resources and authors I have talked with called it a Bendix?

[gemmer]

Not sure about what you are saying is a Bendix turret on the B-17. The early 'Es had the Sperry remote turret, later replaced by the Sperry ball turret.

The late B-17F and B-17G chin turrets were Bendix; in fact, the early chins were surplus turret rejected from installation on the B-25s.

These early turrets on the B-17E were called the Bendix turret. It was a remote controlled turret operated by a gunner lying on his knees looking out throw a parascopic scope threw a dome window on the bottom of the fuselage. They did away with the Bendix turret starting with the 113 production B-17E and replaced it with the Sperry turret.

I respectfully beg to differ and offer the following: Sperry built 113 remote control lower turrets for the B-17, later replaced with the Sperry ball turret. The only Bendix turret on a production B-17 was the chin turret, which was based on the basic design of the unsuccessful Bendix lower turret used on early B-25s.

Good source would be the USAF Historical Research Agency:

http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/studiesintro.asp

Look at study #54, Development of AAF Gun Turrets, page 107 for a some material about these turrets.

There are many sources, offiicial ones included, that incorrectly refer to the remote lower turret on the B-17E as being a Bendix turret.

Take a look at the two remote lower turrets (Bendix on the early B-25s, Sperry on the first 112 B-17Es). They look nothing alike.

The gentleman is indeed correct. Furthermore, some sources refer to the "Bendix" turret on early B-17Es as retractable, which it was not. One additional note regarding the real Bendix which was semi retractable: it was also used on early B-24Ds before being removed and replaced with a tunnel gun in the ventral entry hatch. Apparently, some early B-17Es were retrofitted with the ball turret in the pacific. I have a photo of one taken at a depot in New Caledonia with a serial no. within the first 112
built, that has a ball. I have another that shows the bottom of the aircraft with the sighting blister faired over, scanning windows intact andt he ball turret installed.

Duane

[Ken]

Has it ever been said, even anecdotally, of the aerial kills scored by bombers (B-17, B-24) which crew positions scored the bulk of the kills - or was it evenly distributed? In other words, which rig was the most successful?

Granted, (just an example) if the enemy always attacked from behind, you'd expect the tail gunner to have the most kills ... unless that setup was poor and maybe the ball turret was superior or vice versa.

Not to take the thread on a new direction ....

[JDK]

Great thread, even if some of us got no chance between Albert and Taigh!

David Aiken and John Lundstrom are not reliable? I am sorry for being wrong. It sucks when you learn something and put so much research into something only to be found your wrong later down the road.

Worth noting the difference between primary sources and secondary sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

The best authors make mistakes, or repeat myths because you can't check everything; unfortunately even the guys 'who were there' with the best will in the world are sometimes wrong, misremembering or not in a position to see the big picture. The 'fact' you take on trust is the one that bites you - trick is, when writing a book, how d'you spot which one (of 2,000, say) it is?

There's also quite a few 'facts' that aren't because the reality's too complicated for people to remember or a myth is to persistent to die.

Cheers,

[Nathan]

Did I do ok explaining it even though I was wrong?

[astixjr]

Did I do ok explaining it even though I was wrong?

Yes, Nathan you did ok. The Swamp Ghost website that I looked at even called it a Bendix. Your post caused me to learn something new. I had no idea that some of the early B-17Es had this type of lower Sperry turret. In fact, I had no idea this type of Sperry turret ever existed. I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out how I missed this bit of B-17 history.

The internet is full of rock solid info but there's plenty of twaddle to go along with it. JDK is right, "The best authors make mistakes, or repeat myths because you can't check everything;"

Thanks for the links TriangleP and gemmer. Interesting stuff. Ken's question is a good one also. I'll bet the data on which bomber gun position or type of turret had the highest "kill" %. No idea where to find it. Any ideas Taigh?

Ok, Taigh you win. I picked out some good boxes on Sunday. I actually got to spend some time in the turret parts hangar on Sunday! First time in nearly two months. For second place, you have to come back to Creve Coeur and buy/trade me out of the rest of this stuff!

[astixjr]

Thanks Aerovin. This link below and the pdf of study #54 was very helpful. I just sat down and read the entire 317 page report. After two years of researching turrets you would think I would have stumbled on this website and study #54 before this evening. That's what I love about WIX, I learn something every time I logon.


http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_st ... sintro.asp

[mustangdriver]

This was a really cool thread. I learned something as well, as I had always called it a bendix turret as well.

[B-25 C]

Lake Murray turret. I spent 80 + hours cleaning and preserving it. To every ones surprise all latches, springs still worked. The 50 Cal.s did not have barrels or bolts. Found in the a/c were one live 50 cal. bullet dated 1943, two links for same.

[gary1954]

I have some photos of the Lake Murry B-25C in a hangar shortly after she was dry docked if anyone wants to look at them.

[B-25 C]

I have some photos of the Lake Murry B-25C in a hangar shortly after she was dry docked if anyone wants to look at them.

Lets see what you have

[B-25 C]

This box with the four holes contained D battery's. I found one in bad shape. Would anyone know what the box with the battery's was for?

Last edited by B-25 C on Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.