Spitfire - difficult Take Off and Landing?

[Bill Greenwood]

Zwitter, if I knew about your flying background and experience, if any, I might be able to give some better info. However, in any event I'd get familiar with the controls and intruments of the Spitfire before you fly. You can likely get a copy of the Mk IX Pilot Notes. The two seaters are IXs except the prototype which is an VIII, about the same. You can also go to the airport and look at the plane. I'd get there early for the scheduled flight and try to get a good ground briefing from the pilot. Hopefully the weather will be good and your pilot will emphasize having you learn the plane and see what it does, more so than just showing how good a pilot he is. If you happen to be flying with John or Carolyn, they are expert pilots, I have never had them for a lesson so I don't know. I would buy an hour if possible, not just a half hour so as to get a real good sample. The pilot can demonstrate the plane and you can get time to fly it also. He can do some acro and should be able to let you do a few stalls and rolls also. Take it easy if you feel at all woosy. You can taxi it for a few minutes also and get a feeling for the ground handling. Good luck.

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

[RSpivey]

Hey Bill,

He used to be concieted, until he realized it was a fault... now he says hes perfect instead.

[EDowning]

Bill Greenwood wrote:

The Spitfire is EXTREMELY, MIND BOGGLING, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to fly. It can only be mastered by those few pilots of such incredible skill level that the few who can do it are a super race unto their own. Should you encounter one of these god like creatures, please strew large bills at their feet and offer them cold Dom Perignon and fresh strawberries dipped in chocolate.

Furthermore, should you own an early Spit, like a MK V, or a Bearcat, I'd recommend that you ask the Spitfire deity pilot to fly it for you to give the plane the handling it deserves.

Bill,

In all of the years you owned the little Spitfire you must have met at least one. Have you ever met Carolyn Grace or anyone else that fits your description?

[Jim Beasley]

For what it's worth I've recently been flying the Mk. V, IX and XIV and they are all exceptional with very few bad habits. You'll have a blast. The XIV is different because of the Griffon particularly with accelerated stalls and vertical work, but all were very stable and predictable on landing, even with a 10+ knot crosswind on the hard runway. Grass was more fun but hard or soft was very comfortable and enjoyable.

Jim

I was watching a Military Channel show and they were discussing the Spitfire. One pilot commented (I *believe* it was a BOB pilot) that it was a little tricky on T/o and Landings, but once in the air, it was a dream to fly. No vices.

On the other hand, I thought Bill had said, here in WIX, that T/O and Landings are pretty easy.

Had anyone else read/heard of opinions on the topic?

thanks!

[Mudge]

The Spitfire is EXTREMELY, MIND BOGGLING, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to fly. It can only be mastered by those few pilots of such incredible skill level that the few who can do it are a super race unto their own. Should you encounter one of these god like creatures, please strew large bills at their feet and offer them cold Dom Perignon and fresh strawberries dipped in chocolate.

Furthermore, should you own an early Spit, like a MK V, or a Bearcat, I'd recommend that you ask the Spitfire deity pilot to fly it for you to give the plane the handling it deserves.

Bill...Anyone here will tell you the that is instantly recognizable. Next time try something a bit more fitting a Spit driver. Subtlety is what's needed here, old cobber, subtlety.

Mudge the expert
(Interpret that as your opinion of me dictates.)

[Johan]

quote: Should you encounter one of these god like creatures, please strew large bills at their feet and offer them cold Dom Perignon and fresh strawberries dipped in chocolate.

I will, as long as it's a she, under 40 and offering me a ride in her Spit.

As for you Bill, when our pathvers should ever cross,I'm glad to buy you a cold beer.

[Augsburgeagle]

Personally I think it's very subjective about how difficult it is to control a tail dragger warbird on the ground, You can read descriptions by some pilots saying that it was absolutely no problem and a non event but then you hear people say it is impossible (from what I have seen it is people who haven't flown the aircraft who think it is impossible). If you have the wrong mindset and don't use the correct technique then yes it is going to end badly for you but otherwise it just takes getting used to and understanding how the aircraft will behave, certainly not easy but just like everthing with flying it takes time on the ground understanding it and then practice to master it.
As someone previously said, No.1 is that the aicraft is designed to be taken off on a round grass strip so that it can always face into wind, taking off on todays modern runways with crosswind makes the whole process much more difficult, when operating the Messerschmitt in the 90's it was only taken off on grass runways and only within a cross wind tolerance. Pilots in WWII were trained only on tail dragger aircraft and had the taildragger mentality right from the off, they had no experience of flying 'easier' nose gear aircraft so to them changing to a higher performace tail dragger was less of a step than for your average modern pilot who has had the luxury of nosegear A/C even with taildragging experience.
Alot of these aircraft also need a special understanding of how it will behave once you open the throttle! Number one with the messerschmitt is lock the tail wheel! If you don't lock the tail wheel then you don't stand a chance, how many people think it is difficult to takeoff from reports of groundloops from people who didn't lock the tailwheel! The next thing that scares people is the lack of sight forward, reference points can be chosen on either side of the nose and used to judge movement. With the Messerschmitt there is a tendancy to swerve to the right to start off with and that has to be taken into account, the small tail 109's rudder is practically useless to start off with so this has to be understood aswell, so the tail must be held on the ground for as long as possible so that the locked tail wheel will keep the aicraft straight, alot of crashes occured from hauling the tail off before the rudder is effective. Once the rudder starts to become effective the tail can be lifted but now the tendancy to turn right dissapears and the aicraft wants to turn left, so you can see that if you lifted the tail too early you would suddenly find the aicraft shooting down the runway wanting to turn left and you have no way to stop it, it can only end badly.
You can see that if you just hopped into it and tried to take off you would have a seriously bad day but with the correct training and correct technique it is just another thing to take into account rather than being a vice, that is not to say it is an easy procedure, it is a high power fighter and not a cessna 152 and needs to be understood and treated as such.
Unfortunately in war time with the inadequate training the Luftwaffe pilots began to receive you can understand how the Messerschmitt picked up a reputation.

[Christer]

Once the rudder starts to become effective the tail can be lifted but now the tendancy to turn right dissapears and the aicraft wants to turn left, so you can see that if you lifted the tail too early you would suddenly find the aicraft shooting down the runway wanting to turn left and you have no way to stop it, it can only end badly.

I'm having a hard time figuring out why this would happen. I find no laws of physics supporting it.

The initial tendency to turn right indicates that the propeller turns counter clockwise (seen from the rear) but as far as I can see on photographs, it turns clockwise.

Wanting to turn left meshes with a clockwise rotating propeller.

If I've got the propeller rotation the wrong way, turn the above reasoning around. No matter what, please, expand on this statement.

Christer

[Augsburgeagle]

Hi Christer,
I must admit I'm not entirely sure for the initial tendancy to turn right as you say it should want to turn left. Perhaps the asymmetric rudder is enough at low speed but high prop wash to swing the nose to the right. The propellor rotates clockwise when viewed from behind and when the throttle is opened the aircraft dips towards the left wing but I have been told that there is an initial tendancy to turn right, when the tail is lifted I believe gyroscopic precession causes the force to be precessed 90 degrees and this causes the sudden swing to the left once the tail is lifted.
Matt

Edit
I Believe you can see the initial wing dip and the use of left rudder fairly clearly in this video of Red 7

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9O ... re=related

Last edited by Augsburgeagle on Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

[wacoykc]

I have to agree with JDK! People tend to forget that alot of these warbirds and 98% of all antiques were operated from grass fields where you could always takeoff/land into the wind. Makes a BIG difference! Even a sedate J-3 Cub can be a handful on a strong crosswind day on a narrow paved strip! When I go cross-country in the Waco I look for two things when planning stops...grass runways and then one N-S and one E-W strip just in case the winds are not in my favor. Kept it in one piece for many years now abiding by those rules!

[Christer]

Hi Matt,

Perhaps the asymmetric rudder is enough at low speed but high prop wash to swing the nose to the right.

Propwash or slipstream effect will yaw or turn the Bf 109 left, not right.

The propellor rotates clockwise when viewed from behind and when the throttle is opened the aircraft dips towards the left wing ...

That's the torque effect of a right-hand tractor. Propeller rotates clockwise > the aircraft tends to roll counter clockwise.

... when the tail is lifted I believe gyroscopic precession causes the force to be precessed 90 degrees and this causes the sudden swing to the left once the tail is lifted.

The precession is, as you say, offset 90° in the direction of rotation. Lifting the tail on a right-hand tractor will momentarily add to the slipstream effect (tendency to yaw or turn left) but only for as long as the rotational plane of the propeller is changing.

... but I have been told that there is an initial tendancy to turn right, ...

This statement is the confusing one.

I Believe you can see the initial wing dip and the use of left rudder fairly clearly in this video of Red 7

I watched the video a couple of times and think it's inconclusive and also depending on what is meant by "initial". Uneaven grass surface makes the aircraft bounce. Was there a crosswind from the right? Would it make a left rudder input necessary to keep the bouncing tail straight?

Christer

Last edited by Christer on Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Augsburgeagle]

As you have shown we agree on most of the points but I think you have misunderstood what I mean with the 109's rudder. The propwash will hit the vertical stab and create a yaw to the left as you say but I am wondering whether the asymmetric shape of the 109's rudder that creates a lifting force to the push the nose to the right is enough to create a turn to the right at low speed but high wash but then there is the possibility as you say that the turn is to the left as one would expect and , it would seem to make more sense, Interestingly I have found this page,
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/art ... hs/#narrow
it seems that there is disagreement on the initial swing but maintaining the tail on thr ground for as long as possible and the left swing on lifting the tail appears to be agreed upon!

Some quotes

If you pushed the throttle fully open immediately, the plane tried suddenly to turn right and lean towards the left wing, especially if you had not locked the tailwheel

if you pushed full throttle immediately and your tailwheel was still at ground, the plane carries away to the right

The planes used to veer to the right at takeoff and when airborne to the left

So if you increased the throttle too slowly at take-off, the plane tried to swerve to right - you had to correct it before the real tendency of swerving to left came into effect

There was only one way to keep the swerving in control during take-offs: Fully open up the throttle with firm and swift movement, because you needed good airflow for the control surfaces from the very start. Keeping the tailwheel on the ground eliminated the initial swerving to the right, compensating that with left rudder would have been very dangerous. Swerving to left started as soon as the tail was raised and this had to be compensated with full right rudder, pushing the rudder to the very bottom. The plane would leave the ground in level flight without pulling the stick.

There was only one correct procedure. Open up the throttle calmly and quickly fully open, because you needed prop wash and airspeed to control the plane. The temptation to wash left was negated by keeping the tail wheel down at the runway for a moment. It would have been extremerely dangerous to correct the twist by pushing left rudder. Push the stick to raise tail, now the plane tried to twist left.

and quotes for the turn to the left!!!

After lining up the throttle is smoothly opened to 1.1 ata, controlling the moderate left swing with rudder

Some applied full power at once, treading on the right pedal

The plane had the tendency for swerving to the left during the take-off, but if this led to an accident, it was purely the fault of the pilot.

"Takeoff: the swerve (to left) was easy to control if one remembered to lock the tail wheel, open the throttle slowly (movement range of the throttle was really short) and didn't raise the tail up too early."


All rather contradictory about the initial swing but quite clear about the swing once the tail is up!


I have hope for the future that I will have a chance to fly the 109 and fortunately with the project I am on it is a distinct possibility, hopefully I will be able to get back to you in a few years time about what deffinately happens when you open the throttle!

[Glenn Wegman]

Pilots in WWII were trained only on tail dragger aircraft and had the taildragger mentality right from the off, they had no experience of flying 'easier' nose gear aircraft so to them changing to a higher performace tail dragger was less of a step than for your average modern pilot who has had the luxury of nosegear A/C even with taildragging experience.

Excellent statement regarding the so called "difficulty" often associated with modern WWI Fighter or Trainer flying!

Glenn

[Christer]

Matt,
you may be right that there's more to the asymmetric fin than I understand. I don't even know for sure if there's a rudder trim tab. I looked at the site behind the link. It seems interesting and I'll go back later. For now, I'll have to call it a day.

Christer

[Bill Greenwood]

I am going to make a new topic on Spit takeoff and landing.