VULCAN XH558
Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:13 am
Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:39 am
Remind me again why this colossal waste of money (which has used up around $15m so far to get to a handful of airshows, and has missed as many again due to unservicability) should be funded by the government?
Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:35 am
First, it's not funded by the government. It's partially funded with Lottery Grants, just as several warbirds here in the states get various federal and state grants for some of their projects. The petition only asks for the Prime Minister's office to help in the effort to secure funding. This is one underutilized source of funding for museums that needs to be utilized more. Then again, you're in the US, what should you care what the Brit's do? 
Either way, what better way to spend profits from a national lottery or company "required charity" fund than to help support a piece of Cold War history?
Also, remember that 558 hadn't flown in over a decade prior to this year. The fact they were even able to make one show is a miracle, especially given that this is a bone stock aircraft that had quite a few maintenance issues when in regular service with the RAF and still is a very technology intensive aircraft even by today's standards.
Either way, what better way to spend profits from a national lottery or company "required charity" fund than to help support a piece of Cold War history?
Also, remember that 558 hadn't flown in over a decade prior to this year. The fact they were even able to make one show is a miracle, especially given that this is a bone stock aircraft that had quite a few maintenance issues when in regular service with the RAF and still is a very technology intensive aircraft even by today's standards.
Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:40 pm
Thanks CAP for correcting the previous poster, while I do have some mixed feelings about this project you cannot help but be in awe of the old girl when you see her in the air.
It is an amazing acheivement really considering that there is no military involvement in her at all. The equivalent would be someone privately owning and operating a B-47 on a full certification in the US.
Something you may not be aware of but in order to get her certification all non working equipment and associated services had to be removed. Consequently XH588 flies several tonnes lighter than her operational sisters did.
I was fortunate enough to be in the UK and at Duxford on the 6th of September when she flew in as part of the 90th anniversary airshow. She was due to attend on the 7th as well but the weather didn't co-operate (she flies on visual flight regs) and she unfortunately missed her slot on the Sunday.
It is an amazing acheivement really considering that there is no military involvement in her at all. The equivalent would be someone privately owning and operating a B-47 on a full certification in the US.
Something you may not be aware of but in order to get her certification all non working equipment and associated services had to be removed. Consequently XH588 flies several tonnes lighter than her operational sisters did.
I was fortunate enough to be in the UK and at Duxford on the 6th of September when she flew in as part of the 90th anniversary airshow. She was due to attend on the 7th as well but the weather didn't co-operate (she flies on visual flight regs) and she unfortunately missed her slot on the Sunday.
Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:10 pm
UK Heritage Lottery Funding is allocated by the UK Government. It is primarily derived from a m0ron tax on public gambling, so it's a worthwhile output from people's stupidity.
Normally the requirement is that HLF provide 50% of 'private' funding requests, the other 50% being match funding requirement, with a detailed business plan a very sensible set of checks and balances. Some government / heritage tasks are fully government funded by the HLF.
Funding given to the Vulcan project is government funds not spent elsewhere in the heritage industry.
Despite the magnificent efforts by the Vulcan engineers and workers, the serviceability has been what you might expect; with several missed show bookings. The management of the project in the PR and funding aspect remains, IMHO, very poor and unrealistic.
This therefore remains the precedent setter for funding towards airworthy aircraft restorations; not a particularly good one, also particularly as the main thrust was expected / required to be on the 'educational' front, something hardly noticeable from the team.
I've tried to keep an open mind on the whole project, and I applaud the achievement of those who've got the world's most complex, expensive and advanced warbird project into the sky. I wouldn't employ their non-engineering management and publicity team to run a whelk stall.
Even pre-international financial crisis, funding and sponsorship is not in place for the future, at all. Currently the chances have been pushed even further away. They need a financial miracle. A UK government petition (IMHO) is an emotional sop.
I'm sure some Vulcan team advocates can promote the project more than I would, and their views are just as valid as mine, I'm sure!
Cheers,
(Declaration: I undertook a HLF created and funded job in a local government museum in the UK.)
Normally the requirement is that HLF provide 50% of 'private' funding requests, the other 50% being match funding requirement, with a detailed business plan a very sensible set of checks and balances. Some government / heritage tasks are fully government funded by the HLF.
Funding given to the Vulcan project is government funds not spent elsewhere in the heritage industry.
Despite the magnificent efforts by the Vulcan engineers and workers, the serviceability has been what you might expect; with several missed show bookings. The management of the project in the PR and funding aspect remains, IMHO, very poor and unrealistic.
This therefore remains the precedent setter for funding towards airworthy aircraft restorations; not a particularly good one, also particularly as the main thrust was expected / required to be on the 'educational' front, something hardly noticeable from the team.
I've tried to keep an open mind on the whole project, and I applaud the achievement of those who've got the world's most complex, expensive and advanced warbird project into the sky. I wouldn't employ their non-engineering management and publicity team to run a whelk stall.
Even pre-international financial crisis, funding and sponsorship is not in place for the future, at all. Currently the chances have been pushed even further away. They need a financial miracle. A UK government petition (IMHO) is an emotional sop.
I'm sure some Vulcan team advocates can promote the project more than I would, and their views are just as valid as mine, I'm sure!
Cheers,
(Declaration: I undertook a HLF created and funded job in a local government museum in the UK.)
Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:27 pm
JDK the things you list pretty much sum up many of my misgivings about this project. My previous post was just pointing out my admiration for the technical aspects of the project and the sight of seeing this amazing aircraft flying
It should be pointed out that HLF has been on record (before XH588 and since) as saying that they are not in the business of funding/supporting airworthy projects so the precedence set here is more of the exception that proves the rule rather than a test case.
Did I get a buzz out of seeing XH588 fly at Duxford? absolutely
Do I think she will fly for the stated 10 odd years? not a chance
Do I think she represent a good return on investment? possibly not
Do I think that the money would have been better spent on other warbird projects? probably but the question has to be how much of the money donated for XH588 would have been available for other warbird projects if XH588 hadn't happened and how much was uniquely made available because it was THIS project and I'm not sure of the answer to that one
I would agree that the biggest failure has been the inability to secure a major sponsor and until (if) they do the funding will remain in a perilously hand to mouth state. Which is not the way to operate a complex aircraft such as this.
It should be pointed out that HLF has been on record (before XH588 and since) as saying that they are not in the business of funding/supporting airworthy projects so the precedence set here is more of the exception that proves the rule rather than a test case.
Did I get a buzz out of seeing XH588 fly at Duxford? absolutely
Do I think she will fly for the stated 10 odd years? not a chance
Do I think she represent a good return on investment? possibly not
Do I think that the money would have been better spent on other warbird projects? probably but the question has to be how much of the money donated for XH588 would have been available for other warbird projects if XH588 hadn't happened and how much was uniquely made available because it was THIS project and I'm not sure of the answer to that one
I would agree that the biggest failure has been the inability to secure a major sponsor and until (if) they do the funding will remain in a perilously hand to mouth state. Which is not the way to operate a complex aircraft such as this.
Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:35 pm
Thanks Jafwasw,
It's both amazing as an achievement and in the air. But while I was in the UK this past UK 'summer' I didn't bother trying to see XH558 again.
My memories of the latter period of her RAF display work were enough, for me, and along with the very good point about it being a lean, light Vulcan, that has to be laid against, I understand, not being flown as 'aggressively', as during her latter RAF career - sensibly enough, but for me removing one of the draws.
But that's my own preference. If you haven't seen one, you sure are missing one of the greats - another being Concorde.
Jafwasw wrote:JDK the things you list pretty much sum up many of my misgivings about this project. My previous post was just pointing out my admiration for the technical aspects of the project and the sight of seeing this amazing aircraft flying
It's both amazing as an achievement and in the air. But while I was in the UK this past UK 'summer' I didn't bother trying to see XH558 again.
My memories of the latter period of her RAF display work were enough, for me, and along with the very good point about it being a lean, light Vulcan, that has to be laid against, I understand, not being flown as 'aggressively', as during her latter RAF career - sensibly enough, but for me removing one of the draws.
But that's my own preference. If you haven't seen one, you sure are missing one of the greats - another being Concorde.
Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:08 am
It would be in better financial shape if 10% of the funding wasn't pissed away to pay Plemings wages...
HOW about a similar petition from the entire world warbird
Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:41 pm
population. Worded properly it would point out that the issue is even bigger than just what the UK might decide. it may not carry any real weight but as the three stooges said "it coydent hurt!" (yes misspelled on poypuss)
Vulcan
Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:24 pm
That is just soooooo cool.I sure hope they can secure funding for futher flights.