I
cannot vouch for the statements made by this guy.
I believe -IIRC- that it was posted here, a few years ago.
Saludos,
Tulio
*************
Posted by Denny T. on April 16, 2002 at 18:41:59:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am requesting information from your membership to help solve a Top-Secret P-51 (F-51) / Unit mystery regarding P-51's (F-51) in
Southeast Asia during the vietnam war era:
Because I am involved with several forums in these regards and rather pressed for valuable time; I would appreciate and can only reply
regularly to commo via my personal email:
kb11@gte.net .
This message is a bit lengthy because I can eliminate allot of unneccessary commo by first providing the info I have and the indications
of same:
Because of replies I have received from other forums, it will save some concerns for me to let you know that I am doing this research
merely as an inquisitive history hobbyist, particularly regarding the American era in the Southeast Asia wars. I am not writing a book,
have no intention of doing so and am not doing this research for any other purpose than personal interest.
I was a UH1C/D/H pilot in vietnam, stationed at Dong Ba Thin (home base) and Bao Loc (tactical forward base wsw of Dalat, near
cambodia). I am registered with my old company's website and have a couple war stories published there:
http://www.stallion505.homestead.com
Once in 1969 while navigating into cambodia to avoid heavy weather along the ho chi minh trail, a rather common practice for all service
branches, our single ship was mock "attacked" (close-in peel-off and oblique pass VERY close to us .... made very obvious) by 2 dark
painted P-51 (F-51) Mustangs with no visible markings. 3 of our 4 crewmembers identified the aircraft as P-51's and the other
crewmember was not an aviation buff. (My subsequent research indicates the P-51's were painted very dark drab color(s) with no
markings on them). Until 1974 the incident was a complete mystery to me and everyone I talked to.
In 1974 I was with a friend at his girlfriend's house and met her father. He said he was an ex-Air Force pilot who served in SEA. During
our airplance war stories I related my P-51 in cambodia account to him and told him I was sure the aircraft were P-51s (against much
contrary arguement from others since the incident). He then pulled out a cigar box of pictures and showed me pictures of P-51s and him
standing next to one in full flight suit / gear, which he said he flew in a Special Operations / Security Unit, with the designation 6987
Security (squadron / wing / group / ?) out of SuShung (sp?) Taiwan according to his account ... although the Top-Secret nature of his
missions indicates to me that his account might be skewed by indoctrination habit (I had a Top-Secret-Crypto Indoctrinated security
clearance and have similar habits), and said he could have been one of the pilots that chased me in vietnam. In 1974 he said their official
mission was to patrol Southeast Asia airspace and chase American aircraft out of airspace they did not belong; But intimated that there
was also an unofficial mission associated with the CIA. As was my habit, I casually questioned him enough to feel sure he knew details
only a pilot in that area and class of aircraft would, and wasn't a wanna-be.
After remaking contact with him in 2001, he said the P-51's official mission was to harass Chineese and north vietnam airspace while an
accompanying EC Exercise aircraft would monitor and record the response of China and north vietnam to those incursions. He again
intimated that there was an unofficial CIA mission involved.
With the advent of the internet I have found accounts (with manufacturer serial numbers) that indicate 8 Cavalier F-51's and 1 TF-51
were purchased by the US Gov't, with AMERICAN markings, earmarked for the Military Assistance Program. That particular batch
could match other data for the time period of 1964-1969 in these regards. Some accounts say they were sent to Bolivia and some vague
mention is made of at least some of them being earlmarked for Southeas Asia.
There the trail ends almost completely cold with slightly different versions of that M.A.P. order, although I have done quite a bit of
casual searches for the last few years to locate more information. Because I can only find extremely limited and vague information, I
assume that their unit and mission must have been as very classified as the pilot inferred to me it was. I have also noticed that there is a
blank series of Gov't issued aircraft serial numbers immediately following a bracket of serial numbers earmarked for CIA equipment, the
Cavaliers being the first in that bracket. If the operation was so highly classified, there is a possibility that an equally classified inventory
of North American P-51's might have existed, though that it not my motivation ...although I would obviously have great interest if that
were determined.
My research indicates a time window from 1964 to 1969 where rather reliable info indicates the P-51's existed. It seems probable that
the P-51's were Nationalist Chineese surplus; But I also cannot ignore the internet mentions that the Cavalier M.A.P. order might have
had some connections to winding up in SEA / Taiwan. There appear to have been CIA pilots flying P-51's in South America at that time.
I have also received what I deem as reliable information that at least 1 P-51 was operational in Indonesia at that time, having been flown
by a Mr. Potter connected to an American attache group .... and might have some connection to the matters I am researching.
I hope there is someone in your forum that can shed some light on those P-51's in "Taiwan" in the 1960's or direct me to resources to
research same. Even if no-one in your membership knows of these P-51's, then it could help me determine just how secret this Taiwan
operation was, and I can narrow my searches' directions having that indication. For the indicative probability that the information might
still be classified, I would also appreciate any information someone might afford regarding requesting same be declassified; And it is at
least interesting that my similar request to ACA/SOG groups went unanswered in their censored forum.
I would also appreciate any info, links, resources etc. to learn more about what became of any/all of the Nationalist Chineese P-51's in
Taiwan ... and also the Cavaliers of 1960's serial numbers. There seems to be an interesting void of that info on the internet.
To preclude unneccessary commo exchange about my personal sighting; I have gone through lengthy exchanges with several Special
Operations Veterans forums ... and have looked at every single aircraft we could surmise might have been operated and/or secretly tested
in SEA and mistaken for a P-51 (YAT-28, YO-3, A1, T/A-28, Cavalier/Piper's Turbine "Mustang"); And I remain "98%" sure that what
our crew saw was a pair of F-51's. From age 10 on, I could identify every major airplane that had existed in the U.S. Forces inventory
since WWI.
ALOHA,
Denny T.
kb11@gte.net
ex-Army Pilot, IP, TAC Officer;
Civilian Airline Pilot, retired.
8K hrs tft.
ATP; COMM; FEX; CFI; AGI;
RW/H; ASE; AME; GLID.
Posted by Denny T. on May 16, 2002 at 06:14:07:
In Reply to: Well...were there at least two P-51's in South Eas posted by Thomas S. Colones on May 13, 2002 at 00:20:58:
: Its been about three weeks since this intresting topic came up on this great board . Any new clues or information on this subject of an
American Army Pilot spotting two P-51's or F-51's buzzing his UH-1 in Souteast Asia ? Sounds like a great article for "Air Classic " ,
hope someone can uncover this story .........Freedom of Information Act
: and a lucky break may help ! Come on men , someone here know the answer to this mystery !
===================================================
Hello again Tom,
Pardon this bit lengthy message and any typos, but I don't get the chance to visit this BB very often, and wanted to at least off-the-cuff
(without the time now to do much editing) update the loose picture I'm getting. The research is not dead and is moving along at a
reasonable pace, in spite of the flood of virus intrusion attempts I'm receiving with this bulletin board's subject matter used as bait buzz
words. The viruses are of the type that finds information it is looking for in a computer, sends it to a recipient then wipes the computer
out. (based upon the klez model).
It would be particularly nice if those obviously outstanding USAFSS P/F-51 pilots from the 6987 Security outfit in SungShan would step
up to the plate and share their certainly incredible war stories about flying their blacked out P-51D mustangs out of Taiwan at night in the
mid to late 1960's. I can't imagine them not visiting this website and reading this bulletin board. Maybe they got special / better treatment
by our govt when they returned from SEA, and can still somehow rationalize keeping their heroism a secret from history. Personally I
suspect they were non-traceable couriers between Laos and Taiwan ... with a secret base in Cambodia and maybe even Indonesia,
according loosely to the data coming in. Knowing well the natures of warriors who get addicted to the thrills of such activity, I am
entertaining that what I saw in Cambodia was a couple of CIA/USAF "cowboys" (famous for being "cowboys") on a joy-ride entitlement
secondary to the P-51s' real mission, ... as I don't think line pilots in such tightly controlled missions would have the freedom to nor risk
buzzing us as they did. The more I think about that scenario the more I think if P-51's were even mentioned as a possible mission
platform in clandestine ops, those CIA and ACA pilots at the top would have done back flips through their BVD's to make it happen.
This is circumstantially supported by the brief and mysterious but common accounts on the internet of Cavaliers being earmarked for
SEA in the MAP program. It appears that common account might come from a single author upstream, but I have not been able to find
that author yet; although I suspect it to be Jeff Ethell's (deceased) pirep to Air and Space Smithsonian: "A number of Mustangs were
re-built by Cavalier Aircraft Corporation in 1967 for use as counter- insurgency attack planes in Vietnam"; Which later seems to have
been "clarified" as some P-51's were earmarked for South America and some to SEA under the Military Assistance Program (MAP).
The numbers earmarked for South America, particularly Bolivia, are curiosly different between some of the more reputable-appearing
internet claims ... which might mean that some of those sites might have a more accurate account of P-51's headed for Bolivia on paper
but some diverted clandestinely elsewhere ... which seems to fit the common internet accounts, of Cavaliers earmarked for Bolivia and
vietnam/SEA under the M.A.P, being so commonly mentioned in the same sentence and context.
I am in commo with another Gentleman who has an interest in P-51's in Cambodia, on the hypothesis that they were being used as
untraceable policing aircraft to sweep the airspace around politically forbidden arclights of unsuspecting Friendly incursions similar to
ours; Since arclight coordinate announcements could not be announced on guard freq, nor their airspace policed by traceable aircraft, as
was the practice in vietnam airspace. That is one of the few mission profiles the P-51 would have been well suited for in the clandestine
wars of SEA. The problem with that hypothesis for me is the lack of other pilot sighting accounts so far, while incursions into Cambodia
was quite common. Additionally problematic to that being their mission / base is a first hand account to me by a USAFSS radar operator
who replied that I might have solved a longtime mystery he encountered in vietnam. He was at the scope / radio assisting an F4 up in
Laos by the DMZ who was reporting what appeared to be a T28 in the distance but clipping along at 300 knots. It disturbed the F4 pilot
to the point that he was inquiring to the radar operator about the friendliness of the bogie.
The large number of people who are plugged into the Laos Vets webring and the considerable number who replied to my inquiry there
was pointedly absent of any sightings in Laos where their many eyes were ... vs several accounts of sightings in Cambodia where there
were not so many eyes. I also received a couple of accounts from aircraft ground support personnel that were in Laos, of rumors that
P-51's were coming and prepare for them ... which was a logistical nightmare they dreaded. So it seems to me that the P-51's did set
down, shut down and park in Cambodia ... but not in Laos. Taking in all the accounts to piece a loose picture together ... I suspect their
mission was to transit between Cambodia and Taiwan, both in which I am certain they existed because I saw them with my own eyes in
Cambodia and saw pictures of them parked in Taiwan and spoke several times with the pilot who had the pictures and flew the mustangs
there in 1965. Your guess is as good as mine for what purpose ... although it's rather elementary that the CIA would have any number of
packets to transport in such a secret and untraceable manner. I would be willing to bet that the line pilots themselves were not privy to
what was in the satchels, IF that's what the mustangs were used for.
THANKS for the audience and any further assistance.
ALOHA,
Denny T.