B-17/B-24 Antennae?
Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:55 pm
What are these things for?
I was wandering around in an antique shop (trying to act like I cared... and not break anything) and I looked up and BANG! here's a warbird part! Hal A. Lewyah!
No camera, so I dug up these photos from Whichcraft and the 909.
Are these for radar, radio directional, or what? I've seen them on T-6s, dorsal mounted too.
Dave
I was wandering around in an antique shop (trying to act like I cared... and not break anything) and I looked up and BANG! here's a warbird part! Hal A. Lewyah!
No camera, so I dug up these photos from Whichcraft and the 909.
Are these for radar, radio directional, or what? I've seen them on T-6s, dorsal mounted too.
Dave
Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:13 pm
Automatic Direction Finder (ADF) allows a pilot to navigate using Radio waves from stations. The shape is to stream line the antenna, which is a circular loop inside the tear drop outer covering. The antenna is rotated to get a fix on what ever radio beacon you are trying to fly to.
Commonly refered to as an "ADF Loop".
Every warbird nut should have at least one in their house!
Jerry
Commonly refered to as an "ADF Loop".
Every warbird nut should have at least one in their house!
Jerry
Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:03 pm
Yep ADF....originally looked like this....(I think the teardrop cover looks better.
Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:57 pm
Thanks Guys, The WIX is my favorite teacher.
As much as I hate to go into any antique store on purpose, I think I'm going to go get that thing. It's cool and I just want it.
I'll pass it off as a sculpture. Beats the time I tried to put a TBM prop up as a ceiling fan... took out 2 windows and I kept hittin my head on the spinner..
Maybe that explains some things.
Dave
As much as I hate to go into any antique store on purpose, I think I'm going to go get that thing. It's cool and I just want it.
I'll pass it off as a sculpture. Beats the time I tried to put a TBM prop up as a ceiling fan... took out 2 windows and I kept hittin my head on the spinner..
Maybe that explains some things.
Dave
Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:33 pm
Do you have pictures of the fan? I gotta see that! 
Gary
Gary
Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:15 pm
AeroTRrat wrote:Beats the time I tried to put a TBM prop up as a ceiling fan... took out 2 windows and I kept hittin my head on the spinner.. Maybe that explains some things.
:lol::lol:
This I gotta see too!
Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:46 am
The ADF antenna was usually called "the ADF football" I ran across a bunch of these in a 5 and dime store in St Joe, Missouri.....I mean the guy had a whole bin full of them...just the football part, without the loop...was asking $5 each....I was going to go back and get about $100 worth, but life got in the way, and I forgot....I will be back there soon to see if the little surplus store is still around...
Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:04 am
Speaking of B-17 radio antennas. . .
Does anyone here have accurate, detailed information regarding ALL of the radio antennas used on B-17s in the 1944-1945 time frame?
Cheers!
Does anyone here have accurate, detailed information regarding ALL of the radio antennas used on B-17s in the 1944-1945 time frame?
Cheers!
Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:20 pm
k5dh wrote:Speaking of B-17 radio antennas. . .
Does anyone here have accurate, detailed information regarding ALL of the radio antennas used on B-17s in the 1944-1945 time frame?
Cheers!
I could do with this info too, should anyone have it.
I have the antenna diagram for the B-17F, but not for the B-17G.
I can add this though, from a series of articles I've written for another forum:
From August 1942 the 8th AF used the RAF Lorenz blind landing system, usually called SBA (Standard Beam Approach).
This was an audio-visual system, utilising a pair of ground markers, one at the end of the runway in use and the other a couple of miles away on the approach line.
The redundant RC-43 Marker Beacon antenna (underneath the fuselage of the B-17, just forward of the tailwheel) was usually used as the reception antenna.
This was replaced in service by the American SCS-51 Instrument Landing System from mid-1944.
The aircraft component of the system was the RC-103, later designated the AN/ARN-5, with the distinctive horned antenna on the aircraft's nose as seen arrowed below.
The landing path was indicated to the pilot via a dial with two moving needles to show the aircraft's position relative to the approach line.
The receiver unit for the ARN-5 system was the BC-733:
Radio Receiving Set, BC-733
Nomenclature: Radio Receiving Set
Components: BC-733 Radio Receiver, DM-53 Dynamotor
Weight: 20 Lbs
Size: 13-3/16" x 7" x 4-13/16"
Frequency Range: 108.3-110.3 MHz
Power Input: 12/24 VDC
Number of Channels: 6 Crystal-Controlled Channels - 108.3, 108.7, 109.1, 109.5, 109.9, 110.3 MHz
Channel Spacing: 400 kHz
Description: Radio Receiving Set BC-733 receives localizer signals in 110 MHz range and displays the aircraft position relative to the glide slope on a crossed-needle meter display.
Valves: 3 x 717A, 12AH7, 2 x 12SR7, 2 x 12SG7, 12SQ7, 12A6
I'm led to believe the vertical antenna seen between the astrodome and the windscreen is for the navigator's GEE set. Could anyone confirm this?
All the best,
Paul
Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:47 pm
the antennas carried will vary by the equipment used on board. so, a B-17F-25-BO might have different antennas than say a B-17F-95-BO.
Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:03 am
Matt Gunsch wrote:the antennas carried will vary by the equipment used on board. so, a B-17F-25-BO might have different antennas than say a B-17F-95-BO.
Not to mention equipment changes and mods done in the field. . . the possibilities are literally endless.
Dean
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:14 am
The answer is easy! Every B-17 was exactly the same - except for all the differences ...
I'm doing a B-17G painting right now, and when the time came to locate the specific antenna arrangement for 'my' plane it seemed that no two were the same [frustration]. What I did in the end was use a combination of known G block-specific landing and navaid antennas, and for the comm aerials/masts I turned to normally 'reputable' plan drawings in addition to period photos of Gs near the block number of the 'average' not-famous Fort I'm depicting ...
Overall view of the final outline. Based on info I dug up for the -95 BO, I show (forgot the function) antennas under the nose and under the aft fuselage. Aside from drawings and photos, there aren't any hard specifications that I am aware of for the comm antenna arrays for each production block. As pointed out in an above post, there were many combinations based on need, and of course after the factory the mod centers and later theater depots and even groups or squadrons may have added/subtracted as necessary. Thus, not all Block 95s, for example, will have the same radio and antenna setups -
Closeup view of the final outline after detailing. This one was "Roll Me Over", a 94th BG B-17G as shown in April 1945. "Roll Me Over" was a B-17G-95-BO, serial number 43-38820, fuselage code QE*R. She was built by Boeing at Seattle, Washington and delivered to the USAAF at Lincoln, Nebraska on September 26, 1944. She was then assigned to the 331st BS/94th Bomb Group at Rougham Field, Suffolk on October 11, 1944. After the war was over, she returned to the United States at Bradley Field, Connecticut on June 21, 1945 and was then sold to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation at Kingman Field, Arizona on December 1, 1945.
We (the collector and I) knew the name of the plane, but no known nose art photos existed. We based the art on a Vargas girl that "looked the part" of the nose art and was out on calendars by that time. I made up the style of name, etc. There is one shot of this plane post-VE Day when she went to another group to fly troops home, but there's no nose art present save a black circle ... we assumed that the art was removed outside of the circle, and the circle then painted in. I based my interpretation on that circle. As an aside, a lot of nose artists back then used circles behind their art because it was easy to 'scale up' the sketchbook drawing onto the nose of the aircraft using the circle as a positioning/size guide. I got that tidbit of info first hand from Don Allen, famous 4th FG nose artist.
The finished tonal study -
If you're still with me, the final painting will be entitled "Temporary Reprieve", the scene and title based on the writings of the client's great uncle, a 94th BG pilot who will be shown in the left seat - the red text was my inspiration for the title. The client is writing a book based on his great uncle's service. We hope to use this art on the cover:
Because the sub pens had not been destroyed, we had to go back to Kiel on April 4 for mission #15. I was still flying aircraft #820, “Roll Me Over”, and leading the second element of my squadron. We reached the I.P. (initial point of bombing run) and started our procedural bomb run when flak became very heavy. I caught a hit in my #2 engine which knocked a hole in my #2 oil tank. I operated the engine as long as possible, trying to hold my lead position in the second element. I thought I could run it a little longer and maintain my position until we reached the target. However, this was not to be, and I had to fall out of formation and trail behind the squadron.
Having lost the oil from the #2 engine, it would not feather but continued to windmill causing excess drag. As we approached the target, bomb bay doors were opened and finally bombs were away. By the time the bombs were dropped by the squadron, we were some 2000 feet below their bombing altitude inasmuch as we were trying to maintain speed by giving up altitude. We threw out our bombs as the squadron’s bombs came by. Our squadron leader and our group commander immediately took evasive action by dropping altitude and increasing speed. We were totally unable to keep up so we trailed out behind the squadron which would try to avoid flak and fighter attack by moving out of the area as quickly as possible.
We trailed along the bomber stream with the engine windmilling and alternately freezing to a dead stop with a terrible vibration to the entire aircraft. As the unlubricated engine cooled, the props would again windmill up to 2500 RPM then freeze with the same jolt. Fearing that the prop might come off, I had Jess Hunter and the boys in the nose of the aircraft go aft behind the pilot’s seat. The drive shaft of #2 finally parted behind the thrust bearing after which the prop continued to windmill with no more jolting freeze-ups. We continually lost altitude until we passed over an area at the west end of the Kiel canal where a German fighter base was visible. Several German fighters were taxiing for takeoff to knock out damaged bombers such as ours. We used our flares of the day trying to get some fighter protection from P-51’s which might be patrolling the bomber stream in our area. We had no luck with this so we called our group commander and our squadron commander and were told they had been unable to reach fighter support for us. Finally, in desperation, we fired other flares than those of the day and three P-51’s came up. Two sat on one wing of the aircraft and one on the other and flew us out past Heligoland . The arrival of the three P-51’s put our minds at ease for about 10 minutes [artist's note: for compositional reasons I decided that the 'third' P-51 was out of the frame to the right] until they left us after we had passed the island naval fortress on Heligoland. The Jerry fighters never attacked us. As we flew by Heligoland, we received three or four more bursts of flak as warnings not to come close. We weren’t going to do anything but try to get back home at this stage of the game. However, our adventure was not about to be completed yet.
As we flew 30 minutes past Heligoland, another engine was lost. We were able to immediately feather #3 engine. Now we were flying along with #1 engine and #4 engine running; #3 engine was feathered; and #2 engine was windmilling. Our speed was about 120 miles per hour IAS and we were continuing to lose altitude. The second engine was lost while we were at about 10,000 feet. My original navigator had gone into lead crews and I was flying with a fill-in navigator who was really a bombardier with navigational training. He thought we were closer to home than we were and continually gave us readings of 45 minutes to go (which seemed to us like two or three hours) to reach home base. We continued losing altitude and after about three hours of flying time, we saw the white puff of clouds which indicated England was there. During this entire time we had been flying over the treacherous North Sea, losing altitude, and nobody wanted to go swimming. As we approached the coast of England, our altitude was only 2000 feet and we had almost begun to hold altitude on two engines. However, in order to do this we had jettisoned all loose armament and armor and thrown out several radio sets – anything we could get loose from the aircraft to lighten the load. We were able to still maintain radio contact with my set up front and I contacted our home base. After lining up several bases on which we could land in the event of the loss of a third engine, we navigated on into our home base, received a straight-in approach, and made a normal landing. This was the last mission for aircraft #820, “Roll Me Over”, and although I had flown seven missions in it, I had received credit for only five in old #820. Our operations officer, Major Wendt, at this time recommended me for the Distinguished Flying Cross. We had a very narrow escape and luckily came through it all.
Wade
I'm doing a B-17G painting right now, and when the time came to locate the specific antenna arrangement for 'my' plane it seemed that no two were the same [frustration]. What I did in the end was use a combination of known G block-specific landing and navaid antennas, and for the comm aerials/masts I turned to normally 'reputable' plan drawings in addition to period photos of Gs near the block number of the 'average' not-famous Fort I'm depicting ...
Overall view of the final outline. Based on info I dug up for the -95 BO, I show (forgot the function) antennas under the nose and under the aft fuselage. Aside from drawings and photos, there aren't any hard specifications that I am aware of for the comm antenna arrays for each production block. As pointed out in an above post, there were many combinations based on need, and of course after the factory the mod centers and later theater depots and even groups or squadrons may have added/subtracted as necessary. Thus, not all Block 95s, for example, will have the same radio and antenna setups -
Closeup view of the final outline after detailing. This one was "Roll Me Over", a 94th BG B-17G as shown in April 1945. "Roll Me Over" was a B-17G-95-BO, serial number 43-38820, fuselage code QE*R. She was built by Boeing at Seattle, Washington and delivered to the USAAF at Lincoln, Nebraska on September 26, 1944. She was then assigned to the 331st BS/94th Bomb Group at Rougham Field, Suffolk on October 11, 1944. After the war was over, she returned to the United States at Bradley Field, Connecticut on June 21, 1945 and was then sold to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation at Kingman Field, Arizona on December 1, 1945.
We (the collector and I) knew the name of the plane, but no known nose art photos existed. We based the art on a Vargas girl that "looked the part" of the nose art and was out on calendars by that time. I made up the style of name, etc. There is one shot of this plane post-VE Day when she went to another group to fly troops home, but there's no nose art present save a black circle ... we assumed that the art was removed outside of the circle, and the circle then painted in. I based my interpretation on that circle. As an aside, a lot of nose artists back then used circles behind their art because it was easy to 'scale up' the sketchbook drawing onto the nose of the aircraft using the circle as a positioning/size guide. I got that tidbit of info first hand from Don Allen, famous 4th FG nose artist.
The finished tonal study -
If you're still with me, the final painting will be entitled "Temporary Reprieve", the scene and title based on the writings of the client's great uncle, a 94th BG pilot who will be shown in the left seat - the red text was my inspiration for the title. The client is writing a book based on his great uncle's service. We hope to use this art on the cover:
Because the sub pens had not been destroyed, we had to go back to Kiel on April 4 for mission #15. I was still flying aircraft #820, “Roll Me Over”, and leading the second element of my squadron. We reached the I.P. (initial point of bombing run) and started our procedural bomb run when flak became very heavy. I caught a hit in my #2 engine which knocked a hole in my #2 oil tank. I operated the engine as long as possible, trying to hold my lead position in the second element. I thought I could run it a little longer and maintain my position until we reached the target. However, this was not to be, and I had to fall out of formation and trail behind the squadron.
Having lost the oil from the #2 engine, it would not feather but continued to windmill causing excess drag. As we approached the target, bomb bay doors were opened and finally bombs were away. By the time the bombs were dropped by the squadron, we were some 2000 feet below their bombing altitude inasmuch as we were trying to maintain speed by giving up altitude. We threw out our bombs as the squadron’s bombs came by. Our squadron leader and our group commander immediately took evasive action by dropping altitude and increasing speed. We were totally unable to keep up so we trailed out behind the squadron which would try to avoid flak and fighter attack by moving out of the area as quickly as possible.
We trailed along the bomber stream with the engine windmilling and alternately freezing to a dead stop with a terrible vibration to the entire aircraft. As the unlubricated engine cooled, the props would again windmill up to 2500 RPM then freeze with the same jolt. Fearing that the prop might come off, I had Jess Hunter and the boys in the nose of the aircraft go aft behind the pilot’s seat. The drive shaft of #2 finally parted behind the thrust bearing after which the prop continued to windmill with no more jolting freeze-ups. We continually lost altitude until we passed over an area at the west end of the Kiel canal where a German fighter base was visible. Several German fighters were taxiing for takeoff to knock out damaged bombers such as ours. We used our flares of the day trying to get some fighter protection from P-51’s which might be patrolling the bomber stream in our area. We had no luck with this so we called our group commander and our squadron commander and were told they had been unable to reach fighter support for us. Finally, in desperation, we fired other flares than those of the day and three P-51’s came up. Two sat on one wing of the aircraft and one on the other and flew us out past Heligoland . The arrival of the three P-51’s put our minds at ease for about 10 minutes [artist's note: for compositional reasons I decided that the 'third' P-51 was out of the frame to the right] until they left us after we had passed the island naval fortress on Heligoland. The Jerry fighters never attacked us. As we flew by Heligoland, we received three or four more bursts of flak as warnings not to come close. We weren’t going to do anything but try to get back home at this stage of the game. However, our adventure was not about to be completed yet.
As we flew 30 minutes past Heligoland, another engine was lost. We were able to immediately feather #3 engine. Now we were flying along with #1 engine and #4 engine running; #3 engine was feathered; and #2 engine was windmilling. Our speed was about 120 miles per hour IAS and we were continuing to lose altitude. The second engine was lost while we were at about 10,000 feet. My original navigator had gone into lead crews and I was flying with a fill-in navigator who was really a bombardier with navigational training. He thought we were closer to home than we were and continually gave us readings of 45 minutes to go (which seemed to us like two or three hours) to reach home base. We continued losing altitude and after about three hours of flying time, we saw the white puff of clouds which indicated England was there. During this entire time we had been flying over the treacherous North Sea, losing altitude, and nobody wanted to go swimming. As we approached the coast of England, our altitude was only 2000 feet and we had almost begun to hold altitude on two engines. However, in order to do this we had jettisoned all loose armament and armor and thrown out several radio sets – anything we could get loose from the aircraft to lighten the load. We were able to still maintain radio contact with my set up front and I contacted our home base. After lining up several bases on which we could land in the event of the loss of a third engine, we navigated on into our home base, received a straight-in approach, and made a normal landing. This was the last mission for aircraft #820, “Roll Me Over”, and although I had flown seven missions in it, I had received credit for only five in old #820. Our operations officer, Major Wendt, at this time recommended me for the Distinguished Flying Cross. We had a very narrow escape and luckily came through it all.
Wade
Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:13 am
Looks like we'll have to work on this from the other end.... identify various antennae and their purposes and locations. 
Here's one of the SCR-269 RDF antennae arrangements on an unidentified 8AF B-17G:
A: RDF Loop Antenna (LP-21A)
B: RDF Sense Antenna
C: Unknown, but not part of the RDF system.
I've seen this bar antenna on a few other B-17s, but for the life of me I can't remember what it's for. It's not a standard-fit type antenna though IIRC.
TTFN,
Paul
Here's one of the SCR-269 RDF antennae arrangements on an unidentified 8AF B-17G:
A: RDF Loop Antenna (LP-21A)
B: RDF Sense Antenna
C: Unknown, but not part of the RDF system.
I've seen this bar antenna on a few other B-17s, but for the life of me I can't remember what it's for. It's not a standard-fit type antenna though IIRC.
TTFN,
Paul
Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:52 am
Wade,
The insulator on the left side of the fuselage at the radio room may be for a fuselage-to-wing antenna. We had a discussion about this particular item here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=22742
Here are the two pieces of evidence for your consideration.
I apologize for my hastily added arrow that is pointing to the wing insulator.
This is an F, but it appears that the same installation was carried through on the G. Again, I don't know if every airplane had this set-up.
Scott
The insulator on the left side of the fuselage at the radio room may be for a fuselage-to-wing antenna. We had a discussion about this particular item here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=22742
Here are the two pieces of evidence for your consideration.
I apologize for my hastily added arrow that is pointing to the wing insulator.
This is an F, but it appears that the same installation was carried through on the G. Again, I don't know if every airplane had this set-up.
Scott
Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:01 am
Thanks for that tidbit! Good work.
Without running upstairs into the studio to check, I believe I ran that aerial from the port side of the radio room up to the tail based on photos in the Aero Detail book of Mary Alice at Duxford. I'll double check that item.
Not that Mary Alice is the 'last word', but my rule is don't 'fake' (make up) a detail; that is, I try and have some kind of book or photo reference basis for what I show, even if the reference later proves incorrect.
Wade
Without running upstairs into the studio to check, I believe I ran that aerial from the port side of the radio room up to the tail based on photos in the Aero Detail book of Mary Alice at Duxford. I'll double check that item.
Not that Mary Alice is the 'last word', but my rule is don't 'fake' (make up) a detail; that is, I try and have some kind of book or photo reference basis for what I show, even if the reference later proves incorrect.
Wade