Warbird Information Exchange

So as not to hijack the "Buchon" thread, I thought I should start a new topic on the question of aircraft color schemes.

I don't want to get into the "Authenticity" of a particular scheme (shades of blue, green, or squadron markings etc), but at a more general level.


Should a German designed aircraft that was built/assembled/modified in Spain, and served with the Spanish Air Force, only be displayed to the general public as an historic "artifact" painted in the color scheme it carried whilst in Spanish service?


If so, where does that put the Cavanaugh Flight Museums He111?

The aircraft is a German design, manufactured in Spain. It served with the Spanish Air Force, and in 1968 was given a WWII German camouflage paint scheme for the making of the movie "Battle of Britain".

By following the same logic stated at the beginning of this entry, is the Cavanaugh Flight Museum (or any previous/subsequent owner) "technically" historically correct in displaying the aircraft in either its Spanish Air Force color scheme or its WWII German color scheme?

(Just looking for opinions).

Julian

Well, that's an interesting question.

I have a bias towards Canadian built airplanes such as PBY Cansos, and as much as I'd like to see Canadian build and operated planes stay in Canada and stay in Canadian paint schemes it doesn't bother me that much to see a Canadian built PBY showing off a US Navy paint scheme, or a Canadian built F-86 Sabre wearing stars.

Whoever owns the airplane does have a right to paint it as they wish, and if that wish is to have the airplane painted in a scheme of their nationality that has significant historical relevance to their museum, family, or region, so be it.

I'd love to find a Boeing built PBY Canso, which was built and operated in Vancouver during WWII, but the odds are slim. So, I'd obviously have to find another PBY... But despite it never carrying markings of a locally operated PBY I'd still want it painted to represent the airplanes flown in my area. Same goes for if my museum were to ever acquire a B-25 for display. There was an Operation Training Unit that operated near Vancouver, but they flew the earlier models... B's or C's or something like that (with the further back upper turret), but again, finding one of those would be hard... so obviously a J model would have to do... but I'd want the B-25 to have a paint scheme resembling one which was operated by the #5 OTU.

That's just my view.

-David

As for the other schemes mentioned, that comes under "my airplane, my paint"....paint ain't forever.

The "Battle of Britain" film paint scheme now holds it's own place in history as a icon warbird. Connie's
Buchon's and other birds in the world hold such provenance. How many folks can claim they rode with
others in a Wildcat...at the same time? DaveT's "Memphis Belle" is another..

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DBF

Agree with that. "If" I was in the position to own a Buchon or CASA that had appeared in the BofB film, I'd choose to restore it to it's filming scheme/configuration for this reason.

Or it'd get a correct SAF scheme rather than a spurious Luftwaffe scheme.

I think this question usually comes down to a collision between two sentiments, (1) respect for the vintage airplane as what it is, and (2) use of the airplane to commemorate something else.

I happen to be strongly in the first camp and when a vintage airplane is truly a vintage airplane, I will vote for a scheme authentic to that airplane every time, no matter how boring it seems to others. My point of view is probably more common in the vintage airplane community generally than in the warbird corner of it.

Others tend to see the airplanes more as a vehicle to commemorate something not directly associated with that airframe, thus Buchon and CASA 2111 owners want to commemorate the Luftwaffe (or maybe just use their plane as the bad guy to help commemorate the RAF or USAAF), P-40 owners want to commemorate the AVG operating different models of P-40, and non-combat-veteran P-51 owners want to commemorate famous P-51 jockeys or units.

This used to irritate me because I thought it disrespectful of the actual machine, but in my more mellow years I've decided, what the heck, it's only paint and I can still see the vintage airplane underneath it.

With a new-build or dataplate restoration, of course, it's not really a vintage airplane and no paint scheme is really authentic to it, so I'm happy to see it commemorate whatever.

I do worry that the general public is sometimes misled into thinking that it is seeing the airplane being commemorated when it is not. I don't think this is usually done intentionally, but we may not realize how little most people realize about whether surviving artifacts are actual war veterans. Heck, even enthusiasts have trouble keeping track. How can we expect John Q. to know that many (most?) flying Spitfires are vets and many are painted in their original colors, whereas almost all Mustangs are not, and about half of Hurricanes, and so forth?

August

First,

It is up to the owner who paid for the purchase to have his bird in whathever color scheme he fancies. It is better to have a flying warbird in a fancy color scheme (Reb Bull DH.110 for instance) that a dead plane in a museum, providing that there are still enough of that species extant.5mishaps do happen)

If we, enthusiast, amateur or professionnal historians are consulted which, fortunately, happens, I would avise to stick to the authenticity.

A Buchon would be beautiful in the Spanish Air Force c/s, such as the bird at Le Bourget and the various ones at Cuatro Vientos. (I prefer the shape of the all gray Hispano powered one)

On the other hand, when we look at the German ones, rebuilt at great expenses with rebuilt DB 605 engines, I have no objection to see a German WW.2 colour scheme as their fuselage was born as a Bf 109G.

As they say in UK, my twopenses worth.

Regards

Willy

From another thread:
Err, which 'general public' is that? I think the Spanish general public might have a different view. Let's paint 'em all as Old Crow now.

Sure it is tough choosing the less famous version - but some of us reckon diversity has some merit. As has been said, it would be a very dull world if we all thought the same; what I find interesting is different people's approaches to different aviation history. Travelling the world is educating about 'there' and can be a bit of a shocker about 'there' when 'there' turns out to be where you are from.

Maybe a bit of Spanish Air Force history wouldn't go amiss in in the USA - after all, the US were happy to supply lots of aircraft to the last European Fascist dictator because he wasn't a 'Commie'. The Spanish had to 'invent' Buchons and Casa 2111s because no one else was selling them aircraft; then the US did, getting Franco out of a hole. (That's not an American bashing exercise, just a bit of history we like to forget because it smells bad.)

Fair enough. Of course some of it is if you think of 'em as toys or bits of history. If all we do is focus on the heroes (and their 'cool airplanes') then it's a very poor effort of history.

Most of us recognise W.W.II history is a bit more than a B-17 and a Mustang. Part of the schemes and types question is ensuring that simplistic myth is challenged by, say, P-61s and Twin Mustangs, B-24s, P-40s and so forth.

Regards,

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James K

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www.VintageAeroWriter.com

I meant general public as in the USA. Point taken. In Europe it would be far more embraced painted in SAF than here in the US I think. Again more valid point on diversity but at the end of the day (here at least) if only one Buchon/Messerschmitt shows up, I have to believe that the promoters would prefer it wear the iron cross.

I knew very little about Spain. When my wife and I went last year we had a great time. I learned alot there as well. So in that respect it would be cool to see one flying. But I still think that "we" as WIXers fall into that 1% category. I can almost guarantee that most of my non airplane/hot rod and non history buff friends have no clue about the Spanish Civil War. My wife had never heard of it.

As for my Mustang comment to clarify, just because I would want it to be WWII doesn't mean I would paint it up as the usual suspects (toy?)... Old Crow, Yeager, Big Beautiful Doll, Cripes, etc etc. I would want to honor someone lesser known to help tell their story (history). But again "we" are still the 1%ers here, IMO. Which is proven time and time again everytime a new Mustang repaint is rolled out with D-day stripes and the postwar AF insignia.

Good points, Mr D. It's partly about the power base of the time. The rest of us have to know a bit of US history because of the global situation; like it or not - I seem to recall you had some civil was or something? But sadly the ignorance in the US of other people's history is the classic 'never heard of it'. (Same in any powerbase /empire) A different scheme on an aircraft may prompt a question, which causes learning - rather like your visit to Spain (mine taught me a lot too).

It boils down to do we want to have what we 'know' confirmed, or do we actually want to get smarter?

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

To add further to the dilema of what color scheme for the Cavanaugh He111, I posted the following on WIX back in 2006.



If the aircraft was operated by the Spanish Air Force in the two tone colors for 7 years after the making of the movie BofB, would that mean that the two tone colors (with/without German markings) would also be a valid "historically accurate representation"?

Julian

Forty years ago, September 1968, the filming for 'Battle of Britain' was just drawing to a close, following then as now a frustratingly wet summer.

At that time the Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie's fleet of aircraft was reckoned to be the 35th largest Air Force in the world.

As the watershed for warbird ownership and operation, particularly in the UK, it would surely be nice to see a Buchon flying in those film markings and engineering configuration.

What chance I wonder?

PeterA

I would hazard a guess and say its more likely than seeing on in Spanish colours...

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...and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in Space cos there's bugger all down here on Earth!

As usual, your too easy to disagree with, but at least your entertaining. I don't know the "ignorant Americans" you seem to know, but the "educated Americans" I know seem to know and also seem to care about other people's history. Of course I have a BA in history and usually hang out with like minded history buffs, so maybe you are right. ...

Let's represent Spain on a warbird in the air someday. It's a great country. Just don't run with the bulls. ....