FAA and The Reno Crash

[RickH]

Hellcat, are all those hockey injuries the reason that you are surrounded by those nurses you showed us a while back ?

[JDK]

Statistics only work for those who are presenting them

Well, some statistics would be better than peanut retrieval. If we care about aviation we should be able to advocate for it. Yet, clearly, even here, people can't.

I'm not sure where the two and three dimensions particularly influence risk. You might as well say the cash requirement difference between cars and aircraft is a factor.

[mustanglover]

I have literally been involved in aviation since before I was born, restored many airplanes in our garage and am now a engineer in a very successful airplane modification business.

Yet, I do admit that aviation is inherently riskier than normal everyday life.

Statistics only work for those who are presenting them

Well, some statistics would be better than peanut retrieval. If we care about aviation we should be able to advocate for it. Yet, clearly, even here, people can't.

I'm not sure where the two and three dimensions particularly influence risk. You might as well say the cash requirement difference between cars and aircraft is a factor.

[davidbray]

Statistics only work for those who are presenting them

Well, some statistics would be better than peanut retrieval. If we care about aviation we should be able to advocate for it. Yet, clearly, even here, people can't.

I'm not sure where the two and three dimensions particularly influence risk. You might as well say the cash requirement difference between cars and aircraft is a factor.

Well, I know its not the greatest source in the world for statistics, however according to Wikipedia there have been 18 pilots killed since the Reno Air Races have started. Now after this year I guess that would be up to 19. Since air racing is different than regular aviation, I figured I would look up some motor sports deaths. Since 1959 there have been 22 driver deaths at Daytona Motor Speedway alone. It is a slightly longer amount of time than Reno (44 years) however the numbers are very close to the same.

I wonder how many funerals of hockey players killed during the game you went to during those 7 years, versus how many aviation buddies killed in flying accidents your father helped bury over the years?

Aviation IS dangerous - fact. I base this on the numbers of people I've known (some close friends) killed over the years I've been involved in aviation, sadly, far more than in any other occupation I can think of.

Well OK, yes aviation kills more people than sports, but sports injures far more people than aviation and I know numbers of people who live a very uncomfortable life because of sports injuries.

I'm trying to remember what the point was here. Oh yes, it was something about stats? ... I as well, have been involved in aviation all my life and you either love it or hate it, very little middle ground ... IMHO ... and I advocate aviation everyday, as well as everyone else here on WIX, that's why this website and others like it are around. WTF! .... & by trying to contribute here on WIX is one way (I) personally support aviation. Sorry, but you'll never be able to change your friends or public perception on the dangers of aviation if aviation is not in your blood, it never will be. It is what it is. Certain things in life you need a passion for or you'll never get it. Prove me wrong, and how are YOU changing public perception? Maybe we should hand out free parachutes ...
& yep, some of those girls are great nurses ...

[JDK]

IMHO ... and I advocate aviation everyday, as well as everyone else here on WIX, that's why this website and others like it are around. WTF!

Actually there's also a fair ammout of big-watch posing and more wanna have a big-watch posing. How much that helps aviation is a question.

Sorry, but you'll never be able to change your friends or public perception on the dangers of aviation if aviation is not in your blood, it never will be. It is what it is.

Must remember to not bother then. That's quite the self-fulfilling prophecy, and politely, I think it's also balls.

Prove me wrong, and how are YOU changing public perception

Oh, taking people to airshows who've never been 'because it's dangerous'.

Showing people around an aviation museum who've never been because...

Explaining how and why aircraft work, so people get some facts, rather than 'they all crash and everyone dies'...

Helping publicise the rebuild of a replica aircraft to show some aviation history to people who didn't care and wouldn't know because it's dangerous...

Writing about it, based on facts, because...

I could go on.

I've yet to meet someone who was passionate about aviation without ever seeing it. You've got to start somewhere.

Some people don't reckon it's about posing as a daredevil but trying to win friends and influence people. It can and does work; it may not be cool, or have a big-watch, but it might help stop getting your local airfield built over and closed down.

More relevantly to this thread, airshows, aerobatics (competition) and air racing should be regarded in their own niches as they have, IMHO, different types of risk acceptance and possible control - anyone got views on that?

Regards,

Last edited by JDK on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[CAPFlyer]

Just remember - 75% of all statistics are at least half made up.

[Bill Greenwood]

The biplane accident on Sat. has been on a lot of minds here. I don't have many facts, but I have talked to one eyewitness and heard some informed, if second hand info. The lady was doing her pilot checkout in order to race. She was to do rolls. She did one, very fast and snappy like a competition acro pilot. Then she paused, then began the second roll to the right and the wings just seperated totally leaving only the fuselage which tumbled. She had no chance to get out. An informed guess may be that there was some problem with a trim tab that overloaded the wings before she began the roll. She wasn't diving fast or pullin gs.

[Moonlight]

Just a small point of clarification, she wasn't flying a biplane at the time. Erica was flying a Cassutt IIIM. Here is a pic of the type of plane we are talking about, although I would like to point out that the plane in this shot was not the one involved in the accident:

Last edited by Moonlight on Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[muddyboots]

I'm not sure how relvant this is, but I think people see videos of saaay a jet exploding in a crowd of spectators and somehow get the impression that...airplanes are scary. Or watch fireballs explode from buildings which then collapse into mounds of rubble and decide that...airplanes are scary...

I'm not sure they're wrong either. How many people are killed in "airshow" events V/ say...all car racing events? How many spectators go total to both? Then maybe divide one by the other and see how dangerous it is for spectators and pilots and puppy dogs. That might begin to show a more honest picture. Even then I doubt it.

It's all about perception, and a big engine with a buzz saw attached to it is going to get lots more attention (no matter how true) than a car. Everybody drives cars. They aren't scary, unless a teenager (or maybe Eric) is behind the wheel. We're used to cars. But you don't see a thousand airplanes zipping around all day with very few accidents. However, it seems like almost every time you see an airplane in the news or on TV...it's spiraling into the ground with a bunch of nuns tied to the wings, and there's a busload of challenged children singing "jesus loves me" in its trajectory. I mean, it's all about perspective and perseption, you know?

[ZRX61]

It's all about perception, and a big engine with a buzz saw attached to it is going to get lots more attention (no matter how true) than a car. Everybody drives cars. They aren't scary, unless a teenager (or maybe Eric) is behind the wheel. We're used to cars. But you don't see a thousand airplanes zipping around all day with very few accidents. However, it seems like almost every time you see an airplane in the news or on TV...it's spiraling into the ground with a bunch of nuns tied to the wings, and there's a busload of challenged children singing "jesus loves me" in its trajectory. I mean, it's all about perspective and perseption, you know?

The last big loss of spectator life at a car race (IIRC) was LeMans in '55(?) when the engine of a car that had just wrecked went thru the crowd at head height with fairly predictable results. Something like 80 deaths & in the video I saw there's a rather gruesome sound not unlike someone smashing cabbages with a large mallet..
Mass fatalities have been more recent at airshows (Rammstein etc)

[JDK]

This is exactly the kind of attitudes I'm trying to find data to address - as we all should - thanks for raising it Muddy.

It's all about perception, and a big engine with a buzz saw attached to it is going to get lots more attention (no matter how true) than a car. Everybody drives cars. They aren't scary, unless a teenager (or maybe Eric) is behind the wheel. We're used to cars. But you don't see a thousand airplanes zipping around all day with very few accidents. However, it seems like almost every time you see an airplane in the news or on TV...it's spiraling into the ground with a bunch of nuns tied to the wings, and there's a busload of challenged children singing "jesus loves me" in its trajectory. I mean, it's all about perspective and perseption, you know?

The last big loss of spectator life at a car race (IIRC) was LeMans in '55(?) when the engine of a car that had just wrecked went thru the crowd at head height with fairly predictable results. Something like 80 deaths & in the video I saw there's a rather gruesome sound not unlike someone smashing cabbages with a large mallet..
Mass fatalities have been more recent at airshows (Rammstein etc)

The last injuries to a spectator at a UK air show was the DH110 accident with John Derry in 1952 - 1952! I know 'no accident' is no news, but that's an enviable safety record, and one that can be matched by taking the same precautions as the UK requirements.

Ramstein also wasn't recent - 1988. Subsequent airshow accidents where the public have been injured have, AFAIK, occurred in countries with a limited airshow array and experience, including on the continent. (EDIT: Ukrane, 81+ killed in 2002, Germany; 1 killed, 2008 - given their relatively low number of air events, it's interesting that having more airshows is therefore literally safer than having a few...)

From the Ramstein and Derry accident, the lessons can (and have, in most places) be learned and minimise the chance to near-zero of them happening again. The airshow environment has also changed utterly since 1952 and 1988 as well - just take a look at the safety features in cars of those eras compared to today as a rough example. I don't know what the US safety record is like, again, the cardinal rule of not killing the public seems to have been held.

And following on from Muddy's post, most people's perception of aviation is of extreme danger and mass death; thanks to the actually infrequent airliner accident. (They just tend to be top TV spectacle.) One reason we need to work hard to show people the fun and enjoyable (as well as useful) side of aviation is that the only time people see an aircraft, it's on the TV, crashing. Demonstrating basic manoeuvres or aerobatics is a big 'wow' for the vast majority of the public; something done at the RAAF Museum as part of its education mandate.

I have one friend, a highly qualified scientist who would NEVER go to an airshow because 'people die at them all the time and it's dangerous'. Another, currently re-qualifying as a teacher, who knows aviation is dangerous and that, basically, they are held up by luck and magic. Argh.

Regards,

PS: If you don't find cars scary, you should. A fine example of 'heavy machinery' operated by m0rons.

Last edited by JDK on Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Obergrafeter]

Utterly dangerous airplanes. Why just two days ago a Regional Airliner got his nosewheel in the dirt at SAT and it was all over the news. If one makes a non-scheduled landing we have a "Special News Bulletin" I can't recall there ever being a fatal or even injury at San Antonio with an Airliner.

[Bill Greenwood]

Moonlight, you are probably correct ,the newspaper said Cassutt, not biplane.

IMHO ... and I advocate aviation everyday, as well as everyone else here on WIX, that's why this website and others like it are around. WTF!

Actually there's also a fair ammout of big-watch posing and more wanna have a big-watch posing. How much that helps aviation is a question.

Sorry, but you'll never be able to change your friends or public perception on the dangers of aviation if aviation is not in your blood, it never will be. It is what it is.

Must remember to not bother then. That's quite the self-fulfilling prophecy, and politely, I think it's also balls.

Prove me wrong, and how are YOU changing public perception

Oh, taking people to airshows who've never been 'because it's dangerous'.

Showing people around an aviation museum who've never been because...

Explaining how and why aircraft work, so people get some facts, rather than 'they all crash and everyone dies'...

Helping publicise the rebuild of a replica aircraft to show some aviation history to people who didn't care and wouldn't know because it's dangerous...

Writing about it, based on facts, because...

I could go on.

I've yet to meet someone who was passionate about aviation without ever seeing it. You've got to start somewhere.

Some people don't reckon it's about posing as a daredevil but trying to win friends and influence people. It can and does work; it may not be cool, or have a big-watch, but it might help stop getting your local airfield built over and closed down.

More relevantly to this thread, airshows, aerobatics (competition) and air racing should be regarded in their own niches as they have, IMHO, different types of risk acceptance and possible control - anyone got views on that?

Regards,

Here we go again .... predictably annoying. But good for you that you're working to sway your friends towards aviation. Best of luck, you'll need it.